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Anthony Adolph, professional genealogistWelcome to the Genes Reunited web chat, where you can get help and advice from our resident genealogist and expert family historian, Anthony Adolph. To find out more about Anthony click here.

Thanks again to Anthony and everyone who joined in on the sessions so far.

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Name Date
Esme Wakefield 21/02/2012 21:09:46

Good Evening Essex Llewelyn Pullinger _ I have been unable to find a civil registration for this person. Have found the following info. Christenin - Walthamstow 25 Feb 1880 Marriage - 26 April 1906 Copy cert Marriage - 12 Dec. 1934 Original Cert Death - 24 Jan 1962 Original Cert Have also looked -Births at sea. Medal Roll Index WW1 - 2nd Leuit. Passenger Lists - Various entries Question - Could he have joined up with a birth cert.? Have you any suggestions where I could look to find his civil registration. Thank you

Are you saying your ancestor was called "Essex Llewelyn Pullinger"? What an extraordinary name! Besides the places you have looked already, have you tried the army births? Many "lost" births are lurking there. Also, consider variant spellings - Pillenger, for example.

Barbara McClelland 21/02/2012 21:09:36

Hi Anthony. Have you any tips for tracing German ancestry? From UK census records my gt grandfather was born in Germany C1847. He was a sailor and lived/was based in Liverpool from the time of his marriage in 1878 .He had a family there. He was interned on the Isle of Man during WW1 as quite an elderly chap, at the same time as his son was sent to fight in France- both came through the war.

What an irony there. There is a certain amount about internees at The National Archives, and also his local police force would have had a record of him, which should include specifics about his place of birth. Naturally, you should seek him in each available census from 1914 back, as once in a while the answers given by foreigners were quite specific. Also at The National Archives, you could see if he was naturalised after the war.

Dilys Evans 21/02/2012 21:08:32

Hi I am convinced my grandparents were not married as the two elderley daughters still alive will not discuss it and I cannot find any trace. I cannot find any record of birth registration or baptism for my grandfather although I have found records for all his sisters and brothers. He was born c 1882, could this be the reason he did not marry, because he could not produce a birth certificate?Best wishes Dilys

That's an interesting suggestion. He could have married, of course, without a birth record - there are always ways around such problems - but he himself may have felt it was an insurmountable problem, and, without a birth record, was too reticent to approach the registrar in order to marry. It is a good idea - but don't let it put you off persisting in seeking both the birth and marriage, as they may be there, hidden away under a different date, or a different place, or spelling.

Wendy Moore 21/02/2012 21:05:07

Hello, my grandfather died in 1928 when my father was only 10 years old. One thing my father remembered in later years was his mother saying to him " your grandfather had orange groves in America". Is there anyway of finding any information about orange groves. Also are there any records of commercial travellers around 1855/6

"Also are there any records of commercial travellers around 1855/6" - not as such - and they were frustratingly mobile, of course. "Is there anyway of finding any information about orange groves" - not as such! However, I presume the growing of oranges would confine the possibilities to the southern United States, and you could certainly look for your ancestor in the outgoing ship's passenger lists, going to America, or in the American censuses. You can seek his will (here, presumably, rather than there) and see if he mentioned his orange groves.

MCLEAN WOODCOCK 21/02/2012 21:04:45

Can you not actually view a relatives death certificate online?

No. You can find the reference to the record here, and then order the document itself from www.gro.gov.uk.

James Henderson 21/02/2012 21:03:53

i cant find my grandfathers birth place also cant find his parents marriage my grandfather born 1877 george henry webb has medals fromsudan and boer war cant find his service record with the seaforths all military .

Well, one thing at a time. The army service papers will give you his birth place, so I suggest reading-up a bit on army records. One very good place to start is Stella Colwell's book "The National Archives".

Karen Freeman 21/02/2012 21:02:27

sorry anthonyit was better laid out at my end

It is kind of you to say so - but it is also rather long. Can you put the question in a nut-shell? At any rate, it is clearly something I'd have to sit down with and puzzle over properly with copies of the relevant certificates and so on - a service I do offer in a private, professional capacity, but not something I can do very well during an hour-long web-cast.

Jane Morris 21/02/2012 21:02:02

Another query Anthony! There is a family story that my gt grandfather (not same one as per previous query!), stowed away on board a ship bound for New Zealand aged 10 or thereabouts in the late 1860s, where he learned how to dairy farm. He came back to UK and started the family dairy business in Kynaston Road, in Hackney in the 1880s. I would love to find absolute proof of him going to New Zealand but apart from looking on passenger lists wouldn’t know how to go about it. (indeed he definitely does not appear with the family on the 1871 Census!). His only surviving granddaughter, aged 87, remembers quite clearly this ‘factual’ story. Again, thank you Anthony.

Our outgoing ships' passenger lists are a good way of finding out about such migrants, but they aren't complete. The records of people entering New Zealand exist, in Wellington, some indexed, some not. You can also try to pick him up in New Zealand newspapers, electoral lists, directories, and General registration.

Jane Morris 21/02/2012 21:01:23

Hi Anthony, my gt. Grandfather lived with his family in Shoreditch around 1870-1890 – his occupation was a lithographic printer (as per Census)…where can I find more information about his occupation and possible living conditions at that time? By sheer coincidence I have found that my best friend of 55 years’ gt. Grandfather lived just three doors away from mine and had the same occupation! Is it possible that any employment records from that time would have been kept? With many thanks

One of my Waters ancestors was a lithographer in the Shoreditch/Hoxton area too. My favourite book for finding out what many occupations really entailed is R. Campbell’s The London Tradesman [1747], David and Charles Reprints (1969). It is most unlikely that there would be any employment records. For living conditions, go to Shoreditch and use your imagination, and visit the Geffrye Museum and 18 Folgate Street (http://www.dennissevershouse.co.uk/) both very nearby, both of which will transport you straight back into East London's past.

Karen Freeman 21/02/2012 21:00:53

Hi Anthony I have been researching the family tree of my grandfather John Henry Evans born 10th August 1891 to Henry and Phoebe (nee Smith) Evans at 106 Temperance Street Ardwick as was his brother Albert William Evans in 1893 –father Henry being a coal agent . (birth certificates) I believed that Henry Evans was son of John Evans and Sarah Whitefoot and that Phoebe was daughter of John Smith and Harriet Gwilliam (birth certificates for both) Harriet Smith and John Evans both died and John Smith and Sarah Evans married .-see censuses below 1881 and 1891 I recently received marriage certificates for John Smith and Harriet Gwilliam (see below with information as expected) and for John Smith and Sarah Evans. That certificate gives her father’s name as John Watkins not Whitefoot as I expected I am now thoroughly confused. Can you help me to explain this or where Ive gone wrong? Thank you Marriage certificate 14th March 1882 primitive methodist chapel Ludlow Salop John Smith aged 44 widower general labourer Leintwardine father William Smith (deceased) farm labourer Sarah Evans aged 48 widow Leintwardine father John Watkins farm labourer Witnesses F H Garbett and W ? Some of information I have used to come to these conclusions Henry Evans and Phoebe Smith were married on 7th October 1889 St Augustine Pendlebury Lancs Henry aged 23 Stoker L&Y Railway Address 88 Bolton Road Pendlebury Father JOHN EVANS deceased farm bailiff Phoebe aged 24 domestic servant Address 2 the Avenue Patricroft Father JOHN SMITH Labourer Witnesses WILLIAM SMITH ELLEN EVANS (marriage certificate) FROM CENSUSES I discovered that Henry Evans came from Brampton Brian and that Phoebe came from Clungunford. 1911 RG14PN24311 RG78PN1393 RD467 SD6 ED30 SN51 HENRY EVANS born Herefordshire taxi cab proprietor aged 44 PHOEBE EVANS born Hereforshire married 21 years aged 45 JOHN HENRY EVANS,ALBERT WILLIAM EVANS,MABEL EVANS 1901 RG13 piece3695 folio 17 page 26 HENRY EVANS born Hereford Herefordshire publican aged 35 PHOEBE EVANS born Hereford Herefordshire aged 36 JOHN HY EVANS, ALBERT W EVANS 115 Coral street Chorlton upon Medlock south Manchester 1891 RG12 piece3165 folio 128 page12 HENRY EVANS born Brampton Bryan Herefordshire lurryman aged 24 PHEBE EVANS born Chinganford Shropshire aged 26 At 106 Temperance Street where John Henry and Albert William born 1891 RG12 piece 2079 folio 8 page 10 JOHN SMITH born Bedstone Shropshire agricultural labourer age 56 SARAH SMITH born Bucknel Shropshire aged 61 1881 RG11 piece 2613 folio 17 page25 HENRY EVANS born Brampton Brian Herefordshire Ag Lab aged 14 SARAH EVANS born Bedstone Shropshire ag lab aged 48 JOHN SMITH born Bedstone Shropshire ag lab aged 45 WILLIE SMITH born Leintwardine Herefordshire aged 11 Henry Evans born Bramton Brian as per 1891 census Willie Smith witness at wedding of Henry and Phoebe John Smith labourer as Phoebe’s father on marriage certificate Address Watling St Leintwardine North SideLudlow Shropshire Harriet Smith died Ludlow 1877sep q aged 39 ie born about 1838 leaving John Smith a widower as per 1881 census John Smith marries Sarah Evans mar q 1882 Ludlow Shropshire HENRY EVANS birth certificate Born 19th July 1866 Brick Cottage Brampton Brian Knighton Radnor Hereford and Salop counties Mother SARAH (WHITEFOOT) EVANS Father JOHN EVANS (farm labourer) PHOEBE SMITH birth certificate 18th January 1865 clungunford salop Mother Harriet Smith formerly Gwilliam and John Smith farm labourer John Smith (labourer) married Harriet Gwilliam June 26th 1862 at Bucknell Salop fathers William Smith and James Gwilliam witnesses Thomas Jordan, Mary Ann Mason (marriage certificate) : Sarah Whitefoot married John Evans [?] Name: WHITEFOOT, Sarah Registration district: [?] Knighton County: Radnorshire Year of registration: 1853 Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun Volume no: [?] 11B Page no: [?] 307 Name: EVANS, John Registration district: Knighton County: Radnorshire Year of registration: 1853 Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun Volume no: 11B Page no: 307 There is another Sarah Whitefoot marriage around that time but appears to be to THOMAS Evans 30 dec 1852

As my previous answer

amanda willcocks 17/01/2012 22:02:41

How can I find my fathers war record? He was born 18 may 1922 Jack R Willcocks - he learned italian during the war so he must have been posted there. He said that he was a rear bomber in the RAF but that he was in ENSA the entertainment corp. My mum said that he was kicked our for LMF (lack of moral fibre). They have both passed on and were divorced years before that. Every November 11th he used to put on a suit and lots of medals but i have no idea from where these medals came. I would also like to find his fathers WW1 records. He was born in 1995 June and also called Jack Willcocks and apparently flew and was in the RAF. I dont know if this is true or not but I would really like to find out both my father's and my grandfather's war record if at all possible please please advise!!! Thank you!!

If you can prove you are the next of kin of a deceased serviceman you can contact the RAF Personnel and Training Command, Branch PG 5a(2) (for officers) and P Man 2b(1) (for non-officers), RAF Innsworth, Gloucestershire, GL3 1EZ. Those for the Fleet Air Arm are at the Ministry of Defence, CS(R)2, Bourne Avenue, Hayes, Middlesex, UB3 1FR.

Anthony Riggs 17/01/2012 22:00:29

Anthony, thanks for the advice. I've just tried the Deceasedonline.com site. Nothing showed up. However, it's a newish site and there's not enough Cemetaries joined the scheme yet. Alas, the area of Sheffield, where i'm searching has not come forward. Even my own area, Manchester has not joined-in. Shame. It would help us all so much. I'll have to suggest these authorities join-in to help us all. Thanks for your help.

My pleasure. I gather they are increasing their coverage all the time, but in the meantime you can always contact the cemeteries where you think the burial might be, direct.

Leslie Young 17/01/2012 22:00:14

Thanks very much for your answers tonight, I have a few more leads now,

My pleasure!

Diane Johnston 17/01/2012 21:59:13

why can't I find birth record for Harry or Harris Dean born about 1898 Manchester I have liioked this up before and got some information but now get no results I think his father was Sidney

This can be frustrating. in the old days, before computers, we used to keep notebooks and write down all references we found - that technique might have helped you here!

richard morgan 17/01/2012 21:57:58

thank you very much

My pleasure! And now,as our hour (like my eyes) draws to a close, I'll say good night to you all, and good hunting for 2012!

richard morgan 17/01/2012 21:55:13

Well we Know the year of death was between 1911-1928, as my aunt said my grandad said his parents had died when they were young hence the latest date of 1928. could it be that he died overseas whilst on duty and thats why its not registered.

If he died abroad in the services then he will be in the death indexes I described earlier. You can also check the Commonwealth War Graves Commission - www.cwgc.org.uk

amanda willcocks 17/01/2012 21:48:27

Hi, both my grandparents were jewish and came from a village just outside Kiev, Ukraine, arriving UK i think about 1906 (she came with her sister) and they married i think in 1912. I know my mum told me that they changed their names to Rabinovitch and I know that she told me that their original name was Dermonivitch (although I dont know how to spell this correctly!!). I have found my mums (and dads) marriage certificate but of course this is under his name and her changed surname which was rabinovitch. I have found marriage certs for both her sisters but all under rabinovitch. There are no birth certs for my mother or her 2 sisters gene and helen. I have no idea what my mum's mother's maiden name was! Also I know that my mum told me that my grandmothers mother died when she (her mother) was only 3 and she was raised by a cruel step mum in the Ukraine. How can I possibly trace this line of the family please? Without knowing my grandmothers maiden name it seems hopeless. I am sure she told me it was dernanovitch and that they changed it because they thought the english would be able to spell rabinovitch more easily!! I also know that she told me that during WW11, my maternal grandparents had to go to the police station, reporting weekly as 'desirable aliens' being ukrainian. So I dont know when they became naturalised. I know they lived in the east end of london, my mum told me within the sound of bow bells (as did many jewish immigrants). I also know that Rabbi Lionel Blue (celebrity rabbi who did a lot of tv and radio broadcasts) lived next door to my mum when they were children and was raised mainly by my grandmother. esther... my mum was born in 1925 called hetty. So I have looked for my mother's parents marriage certificate - him being henry 'dermanovitch' and she being esther and married 1912 and nothing.... obviously they probably didnt spell it henry and dermanovitch brings nothing at all so must be a different spelling or recorded differently....! I have found my grandparents death certificates, he in 1958 and she in 1961 but it is all under the name of rabinovitch which is not the original name as I said. Can you help please.... I dont know how to progress - I am sure lots of jewish descendants have the same problems as myself....!! Phew thankyou... please help if you can!!

Yes, these are common problems. Naturalisations are at The National Archives and you can search by name on their on-line catalogue (you can narrow the field by using the reference for naturalisations, HO 1). You can search for information about Jewish communities in the Ukraine at www.jewishgen.org, and join the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/ to benefit from the help and advice of other members.

richard morgan 17/01/2012 21:45:44

I know my great grand father Henry Joseph Morgan Born 1876 in Portsea Island married Annie Sarah Ferris born 1878. They were living in britain street in portsea island according to 1911 census. he was a stoker in royal navy but cannot find his death registered though I only have the period 1911-1928 as his year of death. My Grandads brother was born either 1910 or 1911 as he was 9 months in 1911 register Charles J Morgan yet I can't find him on shipping lists he went to new zealand or austrailia as an orphan between the same time period as above we believe.

You've answered your own question there, as presumably he died after 1928, unless you have not also looked at the smaller categories of deaths (that are indexed here alongside the main ones) - First World War deaths, to give one example. It's a shame you cannot find the brother Charles in a shipping list, though presumably it is not essential, as you know where .he ended up. You could try the archives there to see what might be in their incoming passenger lists.

Jennifer Wright 17/01/2012 21:43:27

how can I find out about adoptions

The adoptions section of your local Social Services should be your first port of call - but can you be more specific about what you want to know?

Anthony Riggs 17/01/2012 21:36:33

Anthony, thanks for your response. I did look in the general registers via this site and that's where I found the listing for Hannah's death. Is that it or is there a way to find out more ? Currently, we assume that with no named father, that maybe she was thrown out of home because she doesn't appear on the 1891 census. With no Parish listing, maybe the churches wouldn't accept her. She may well be in a pauper's grave ? We just don't know because the trail has gone dry.

As I said, you cannot read anything into her not being in the parish registers indexed here, because they represent only a tiny proportion of those that exist. Your next steps are to buy the death certificate itself, and once you know exactly where she died, look in the local graveyards and cemeteries. http://www.deceasedonline.com has an increasingly good coverage of burials.