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Another discussion of this family:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1339228?jump=1339228

Hi Evie

Think I am back in the land of the living!

Bit of a lovely surprise to see all your hard work with the McDonalds (Ronald McDonald, eh?)

Will digest your findings tomorrow, to see what is what. I have been thinking about the Catherine McDonald and Thomas Caddell marriage, that sounds likely, doesn't it? (Cannot be too many Catherine McDonalds marrying Caddells around that time in that area) and I agree that she could just be "married off" to William Turner, in error. Without seeing the original census, it is difficult to say. Unless of course, the marriage was short and she then cohabited with WT? She did seem to flit from one to another. One thing I find puzzling, if she was marrying Thomas Caddell and he was John Caddell McDonald's father, why she didn't name him as the father in the birth cert, and did not use the Caddell surname to register his birth. (Perhaps another Caddell was the guilty party and used a son to cover up).

Once I establish how to work Scottish People, I will see who Catherine's parents were and that should put me on the right track. If it is the right Catherine.

Thanks again Evie for your efforts, it is good to have someone to "chew" this over with, the family are not really interested!

Kindest regards

Dee

Oh, well.

That Kate in 1901:


Name: Kate MacDonald
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relationship: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmuir, Invernesshire
Occupation: General Servant (domestic)

Donald MacDonald 32 - farmer
Kate MacDonald 29
Catherine MacDonald 27


siiiiigh.

Might that Ronald have remarried and then died by 1891?

Name: Effie McDonald
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmuir, Invernesshire
Occupation: Crofter

Civil Parish: Kilmuir

Effie McDonald 60
Donald McDonald 23 (? Maybe Effie's son?)
Kate McDonald 20 - born Kilmuir
Catherine McDonald 18


So many webs!

Looks like the same household in 1881:


Name: Ronald McDonald
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Ann
Where born: Stensholl G, Inverness Shire
Occupation: Crofter Of 7 Acres Arable

Name: Ann McDonald
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Ronald
Where born: Kilmuir G, Inverness Shire

Ronald McDonald 50
Ann McDonald 38
Kenneth McDonald 14
Ann McDonald 12
>> Kate McDonald 10 - born Stensholl G, Inverness Shire
Cathren McDonald 7 - ??
Samuel McDonald 5
Donald McDonald 3
Meron McDonald 1

Not a perfect match, in 1871:


Name: Cathrin McDonald
Age: 3 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relationship: Grandaughter (Granddaughter)
Father's Name: Ronald
Mother's Name: Ann
Where born: Kilmuir, Inverness Shire
Occupation: Farmer's Granddar

Civil Parish: Kilmuir

Cathren McDonald 60
Ronald McDonald 37
Ann McDonald 27 (older)
Donald McDonald 6
Kenneth McDonald 4
Ann McDonald 2
Cathrin McDonald 3 Mo

1891


Name: Margret MacDonald
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmuir, Invernesshire

Name: Ann MacDonald
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmuir, Invernesshire
Occupation: Domestic Servant

Civil Parish: Kilmuir

Ann MacDonald 40
Margret MacDonald 8

Ah yes, I just realized (I'd noticed that Margaret in 1901 and then let her slip my mind back when I was looking at the Caddells) -- the Margaret alviegal pointed to was:

Margaret MacDonald 18 Kilmuir, Inverness shire

Two strikes for Kilmuir. Interesting.

I love guilting people with my scotlandspeople credits. ;)

But no, seriously, I have a bunch left over because I needed a very few recently to check the one bizarre Scottish bit of my own family (I have no idea why my Wiltshire-born and Wiltshire-died grx3 grfather shows up in the census in Scotland in 1841, having (re)married there 2 years earlier ...). I really have no use for them now. There's just no point in me looking at the image when you'll need to anyhow if it seems of any interest.


Now, in 1881:

Name: Catherine Cameron
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmuir (G), Invernessshire
Registration Number: 646/2
Registration district: Partick
Civil Parish: Partick
Town: Hillhead
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 12 Bank St
Occupation: Nurse

-- she matches up reasonably well with the 1891 Catherine Cadell -- born in Kilmuir, liiving in Lanarkshire, wouldn't be unusual for later census to show her as born in Lanarkshire, for instance if her husband didn't know where she was born, just where she "came from".

I don't find a Cameron-Caddell marriage 1881-1891 at SP though.

Thank you Evie for taking the time to help me...

Not sure if it's the flu or what, but I still don't know if I am coming or going.

At the moment I am looking for Catherine & Margaret in Kilmiur, Inverness-shire to see if I can match them together with their family.

Thanks again for your kindness and thank you for using your credits to look up the marriage for me.

Kindest regards

Dee

In 1891, this is the only Tho* Cad*l in the vicinity:


Name: Thomas Caddell
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth Middle Church
Town: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: 69 Watergate
Occupation: Unemployed

Thomas Caddell 38
Catherine Caddell 34
Patrick Caddell 5
Mary Ann Caddell 3
Catherine Caddell 1

Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Springburn, Lanark

- she doesn't match up with the 1901 Catherine:

Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
Gender: Female
Where born: Killerwuir, Invernesshire

Also, this bit from the 1901 census that alviegal found:


Name: Catherine Caddell
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
William Turner 55
Catherine Caddell 32
John Caddell 2 b Perth


really doesn't make sense -- if she's his spouse, why are their surnames different?

You can look at the original census image at scotlandspeople. Ancestry may have done one of its common screw-up. One possibility that springs to mind is that Catherine is "wife", but not of William Turner.

Turner could be in a completely different household. If Catherine was in the next household and was the wife of the head, but the head was not present on census night, Ancestry may have done what it did in hundreds of cases in the English censuses, especially 1891 -- just attached her to the nearest male head of household. One of my gr-grfathers acquired a spare wife that way.

That's a bit of an off chance, but it's worth checking.

Scotlandspeople has this marriage:

1898
CADDELL THOMAS
MCDONALD CATHERINE
PERTH /PERTH
387/00 0192

I spent a credit for the search results, but you can spend your own 5 credits when you're feeling better to get the image. ;)

Hi Elizabeth

Just re-reading your email, it was 119 South Street, not 199, was that just a typo?

Would you be able to look up a marriage between William Turner and Catherine McDonald please? You said you couldn't find one for William Turner and Catherine Caddell, but that was probably not her real name.

Thanks again for your help, Elizabeth.

I guess I am going to have to wait until 1911 census, but knowing how things are going that will throw a dozen more complications out!!

Kind regards

Dee

Hi Elizabeth

I have been pondering this all afternoon too. Some enigma, eh?

Looks like you are getting warmer though...

It is a bit of a coincidence that Catherine is named Caddell, with a son named John aged 2, alas there is no sign of Annie though. Also, looking at the information available, there are not many other options. I am sure Annie is a year older than John, but there are no websites covering births to check. I got her dob from her marriage cert, not to say it is accurate though.

I have flu at the moment, so I am not going to use Scottish People until I have all my faculties back!! Don't want to waste credits, and I am unfamiliar with the working of the website.

Thanks for your help Elizabeth, I am so grateful.

Trouble is I have nothing concrete to go by. I already have a birth cert of sort from Scottish People, but because Catherine was not married, it does not give enough details to double check anything, thus I cannot go back confidently; most of the info seems plausible, but I cannot g'tee it connects, and do not want to go gaily up the wrong track just because it sounds right.

I do feel that Catherine Caddell is the same person though, but cannot understand where Annie is. I will have to find Annie's birth and go from there. It is also a coincidence that there is a McDonald girl working as a servant with the Caddells, like you say, possibly a sister of Catherine's. I wonder if Catherine took the name of Urquhart after Annie's birth?

I still feel that the Gardiner name was only invented to get John into the army, and as he was going under that name, he had to stick with it!

Thanks again, and a Happy New Year to you.

Kindest regards

Dee

This is very strange, This Catherine is born in the same place as the young girl above and she also has a son called John, I wonder if she fits in somewhere? I can't find her in previous records. No record for a William Turner and Catherine Caddell marrying either.


1901 Scotland Census
about Catherine Caddell
Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
Gender: Female
Where born: Killerwuir, Invernesshire
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: 10 Paul St
Occupation: Dye Worker
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 15
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1901_124
Household Members:
Name Age
William Turner 55 b Leven, Fifeshire, shoemaker
Catherine Caddell 32
John Caddell 2 b Perth

1901 for John Caddell. I see there is a young MacDonald girl working for him. A sister of Catherine? Do you know where Catherine (Kate as she signed herself on the birth certificate) was born?


1901 Scotland Census
about John Caddell
Name: John Caddell
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Moulin, Perthshire
Registration Number: 384/1
Registration district: Moulin
Civil Parish: Moulin
County: Perthshire
Address: Killavoulin Farm
Occupation: Farmer
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 12
Line: 14
Roll: CSSCT1901_123
Household Members:
Name Age
John Caddell 67
Jane Caddell 59 sister, b Moulin
Jane McRaw 55
James Anderson 28
Angus McLeod 17
Margaret MacDonald 18 Kilmuir, Inverness shire

These are the peop[e living at 199 South Street , Perth. This is John's birth place according to his birth certificate and he was definately illegitimate. In those days people seemed to move quite frequently, often just a few doors away.


1901 Scotland Census
about John Knight
Name: John Knight
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relationship: Brother
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Perth, Perthshire
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth Middle Church
County: Perthshire
Address: 199 South St
Occupation: Railway Lamp Cleaner
ED: 30
Household schedule number: 199
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1901_126
Household Members:
Name Age
Martin Knight 29
Bridget Knight 60
John Knight 23



Liz

Ah. He married as John Gardiner?

And Annie was registered as, and went by, Urquart?

Was John in WWI? Have you looked for any service records? There are a gazillion John Gardiners in the WWI Medal Rolls Index at Ancestry, for instance. Would he have been in a Scottish unit? A half a gazillion of them ...

For the British Army WWI Service Records database, you can't even search by DOB, if he was faking it.


If he married as Gardiner, he may have simply made up a father. Or he may have changed his surname to the name of the person he understood to be his real father.

I am uncertain as to whether Catherine ever married, she had two illegitimate children, Anne Urquart c1897 and John Caddell McDonald in 1898 both born in Perth.

By the time John was 15 he entered the army, and as he was under age, it was considered this was when he changed his name to John Gardiner to hide his real identity; whether this name was made up or what, no-one knows. If his father was David Gardiner, it doesn't make sense that he was named John Caddell McDonald.

He married in 1926 in Chelmsford Cathederal, but I do not know when he came to England, presumably when he was in the army.