Find Ancestors

Pamela.

Contact Allan direct because he might not see your reply

Hi Pamela

Thank you for this information, I will try to check it out.

First, an explanation: as you have probably seen from the earlier posts I was trying to trace my Grandfather, Clifford Mortimer, who on various certificates is described as an "Artist" or "Decorative Artist". This last was further expanded on his Death Certificate as "Decorative Artist Theatre and Cinema"

Apart from appearing on the 1911 census, Clifford does not appear on any other Census, at least not under the name of Clifford Mortimer. However, the census gave Clifford's place of birth as London

From my Grandfathers Certificate of marriage to Adelaide Coe in Fylde 1904 I found that his father was Joseph Mortimer Coach Trimmer who was deceased at the time of the marriage. Incidentally at the time of marriage myg/f was 44 and my g/m 23

I was not aware that there was a John Coe in London but I will try to search to see if there is a connection.

Whilst I am only in the early stages of my research most of my Coe family appear to have been in Northwich Cheshire.

Adelaide's mother, Annie Coe (maiden name as well as married name) was born in Cork and Adelaide's father was born in Manchester but in 1851 he appeared on the census as 17mths old living with an Uncle in Northwich

Please keep in touch and we may be able to share any connections.

I would finally add that I may not be able to respond immediately to any questions put on the thread as I live in Australia (Western) and the time difference means that I have to be up early (currently 5.38am ) to catch the mid -evening shift of people in the UK.

I try to get on the board each morning but you can always pm me, though as I have found, most people prefer a reply on the thread, as it also helps others who may also be doing research on your behalf

G'day to you Quinsgran, many thanks for your advice to Pamela

Regards to you both

Allan

Pamela,

My apologies, I should have said that I am also new to this but as you will see if you read through this thread, people on this site are incredibly generous with their assistance and research.

My daughter also purchased a years membership subscription to a local Family History Society and I use the resources there. The best present she has ever given me

Regards

Allan

Coach-related Coes in the 1881 census, for info:


Joseph E. Coe, 1858, coach builder, Peterborough
George Coe, 1846, coach builder, London
Alfred Coe, 1822, coach smith, Poplar


Now for Mortimers; this one's interesting - have we seen him?

Name: Robert Mortimer
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Ipswich, Suffolk, England

Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London

Street address: 517 Liverpool Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Coach Painter

Something rather interesting about the Robert Mortimer household.


This is the household in 1871 in Ipswich:

Robert Mortimer 39
Maria Mortimer 40
Emma Mortimer 13
Frederick Mortimer 12
Willie Mortimer 5
Ernest Mortimer 1


This is the household (Robert is away) in 1881:

Maria Mortimer 49
Willie. Mortimer 15
Ernest Mortimer 11
Alice Mortimer 5
Clifford Hallett 39
Fanny Hallett 39
Ada Hallett 16


There's a Clifford in the household.

Name: Clifford Hallett
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Male
Where born: Athenstone, Yorkshire, England
Lodger/visitor
occupation: equestrian


And as we've been discussing in a couple of threads recently -- equestrian = circus performer.

What is the relationship here? I am very curious.

Not finding a Hallett-Fanny marriage on a quick search.

This is Fanny:

Name: Fanny Hallett
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Female
Where born: Poole, Devon (it clearly says Dorsetshire)
Occupation: Equestrian


This calls for some investigation. ;)

1871 - in Stockport, Cheshire, staying at publican's lodgings:

Clifford Wallett 29 - equestrian director
Fanny Wallett 28
Elizabeth Wallett 8
Ada Wallett 6
William Wallett 2


1861 in Bradford, Yorkshire

Name: Clifford Wallet
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Kingston Upon Hull
Occupation: horserider

John Speckman 25 - horserider
Mary Speckman 23
John Speckman 6
Ruth A Speckman 1
Clifford Wallet 18


Births Dec 1842
Wallett Clifford Atherstone 16 209


No idea what the theory is, it's just all interesting!

Want another theory? ;)

... Nah. Just spent some time tracking down a Clifford Henry Marls Marles Marels born 1862 who was a coach painter in 1881, married Alice Coates 1895, but he's accounted for in all the censuses, and a house painter in 1901. Just so you know, he's ruled out!

G'day Allan.

Also from down under NZ

Hi EvieBeavie,

The connection you have made is interesting, however my Clifford would have been born around 1860 as his age (if he was truthful!) on his marriage certificate was given as 44. he was also given the rank of Batchelor not Widower. BUT i am now beginning to see from the work you have done, and bless you for it, how Clifford M could also have slipped through the cracks

Honestly, when I started this thread, I did not know that people would do research on behalf of some totally unknown person. It is truly a humbling experience.

My very sincere thanks to you once again

Regards

Allan

Hi again EvieBeavie

Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding.

Clifford and Adelaide resided in Stockport for a while as their first born's birth was registered there in 1912 as was his death in the same year.
]
My aunt Kathleen's birth was also registered in Stockport in 1913.

However my father's birth was registered in Broughton in 1915...the same area that my grandmother appeared in in the 1901 census as a domestic servant

Can someone please pass me the smelling salts!!

Regards

Allan

My sincere apologies, Quinnsgran, I totally failed to respond. How's NZ?

Regards

Allan

Hi Allan.
Its going to be a lovely day here. The weather has been great this summer. Im on Aucklands North Shore.
Where are you?

1891 census
I found a ? Mortimer age 30 living Maryport Cockermouth
I no longer subscribe to Ancestry and found this on another site. Can you check who this unknown Mortimer is?

Regards.
Margaret

"(if he was truthful!)"


That is the big question. Given how young his bride, he might have minimized somewhat.

I wasn't meaning that Clifford Wallett was likely to be your Clifford though -- just that he was rather an interesting character, and he seemed to have some connection with a Mortimer household headed by a coach painter.

Clifford wasn't that common a name. And coach painter wasn't a hugely common occupation ...

What I was kind of wondering was whether Clifford Wallett might be connected to Mortimers by virtue of having had a child with one ... but I couldn't find any trace of such a being. ;)

"Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding."

And where did you find that??

It doesn't seem to be at FreeBMD!

Prior to the wedding would be before 1904, if I'm following.

Lots of Joseph Mortimer deaths after, say, 1880, but none in Stockport. Are transcriptions of deaths still that spotty maybe, and it's missing still?

There are Mortimer deaths in Stockport after 1906 ... no Joseph ...

Let me continue my musings.


1901

Name: John Mortimer
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Birmingham

Civil Parish: Stockport
County/Island: Cheshire

John Bowen 64 - Showman Exhib. (impressario maybe?)
Alice Bowen 56 - Showwoman
Arthur Bowen 20 - Showman
John Mortimer 45
John Read 27 - own means - visitor
Annie Read 25 - own means - visitor
Rosy May 20 - Vocalist - visitor


Occupation: COMEDIAN (annotated actor)

What that means is: clown. Or at least, vaudeville-type performer, given the cohabitants at the address.

As I mentioned, we've had another such here recently; someone who was described as clown in a later document in Australia (a child's marriage, I think), and in censuses was described as "equestrian commedian".


This Mortimer is a circus person too.


On your Clifford's death cert, he was: "Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)".

Might he just have been connected with the circus, at least in earlier life, or come from a family that was?

Or with musical-comedy theatre?

In the 1881 census, all these Mortimers are Comedian / Actor:


Caroline Mortimer
mother Alice
abt 1870 Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Daughter
Southwark St George Martyr, London

David Henry Mortimer
mother Alice
abt 1866 Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Son
Southwark St George Martyr, London

George Charles Mortimer
mother Alice
abt 1846
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Son
Southwark St George Martyr, London

John William Mortimer
mother Alice
abt 1862
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Son
Southwark St George Martyr, London

Joseph Mortimer
mother Alice
abt 1851
Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Son
Southwark St George Martyr, London


John Mortimer
abt 1842 Codnor Park, Derbyshire, England
Boarder
Basford, Nottinghamshire


Joseph Mortimer
wife Annie
abt 1841 London, London, Middlesex, England
Brother (it's Boarder, not brother)
Sheffield, Yorkshire


Interesting Joseph there. His household is:

Joseph Mortimer 40
Annie Mortimer 23
Dennis Mortimer 3

Bit of a May-December thing going on ...

And in 1881 with occupation "Theatrical", we have:


Nora Mortimer
parents M., Annie
abt 1864 Birmingham
Daughter
Bishopwearmouth, Durham

rather obviously not her parents:

M. Jones 23 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor)
Annie Jones 30 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor)
Nora Mortimer 17 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor)


Percy Mortimer
abt 1860 Dorking, Surrey, England
Visitor
Brighton, Sussex


Quite a cluster of these Mortimers.


My surname is relatively common in England. In 1881, there was only one person with that surname who was a Comedian.

Those Mortimers were once Hopwoods (or at least their mother was married to a Hopwood -- which came first I haven't figured out yet) -- matching birthplace (Leeds) and years:


1881:

Alice Mortimer 50
George Charles Mortimer 35
Joseph Mortimer 30
Annie Mortimer 22
> John William Mortimer 19
> David Henry Mortimer 15
> Caroline Mortimer 11
Frederick Harvey 19 - Comedian
Martin Harvey 20 - Comedian
Charles Burton 45 - Comedian
James H. Smith 26 - Surgeon!


1871:

William Hopwood 45 - cabinet maker
Alice D Hopwood 43
Mary A Hopwood 16
Emma Hopwood 13
Hannah Hopwood 11
> John Wm Hopwood 9
> David Hy Hopwood 6
George C Hopwood 4 (note George Charles Mortimer in 1881)
> Caroline R M Hopwood 1
Leonora T Cook 13


Yup, they started out as Hopwoods; 1861:

William J Hopwood 35
Alice D Hopwood 32
Joseph P Hopwood 13
Mary A Hopwood 6
Emma Hopwood 3
Hannah Hopwood 1


Still no sign of a Clifford, but there are too many coincidences here!

1861 in Leeds:

William J Hopwood 35
Alice D Hopwood 32
> Joseph P Hopwood 13
Mary A Hopwood 6
Emma Hopwood 3
Hannah Hopwood 1


That Joseph is absent in 1871, and a comedian in the Mortimer household in 1881.


Births Mar 1870
HOPWOOD Caroline Rebecca Leeds 9b 382

She is Caroline R *M* Hopwood in 1871.

I think she maybe wasn't Alice's daughter, she was the daughter of a grown child. Like maybe Joseph.


Marriages Mar 1847
BEADNELL John Leeds 23 364
CALVERT Ellen Leeds 23 364
Firth Benjamin Leeds 23 364
> HOPWOOD William John Leeds 23 364
LOCKWOOD Edward Leeds 23 364
NETTLETON Elizabeth Leeds 23 364
> PARKER Alice Dixon Leeds 23 364
Wood Margaret Leeds 23 364


So the kids were all genuine Hopwoods.

But by 1881, they were all Mortimers.

Stage name?

Hi EvieBeavie,

My sincere apologies to you as yesterday I gave you some wrong information. Ishould have checked my notes first. What I did find in Freebmd was That there was a marriage recorded in Dec 1861 quarter for a Joseph Henry Mortimer ( Salford 8d 3)

Also Dec 1868 quarter Joseph Mortimer Stockport 8a 97

That was where the Stockport connection was

Deaths :

Joseph Henry Mortimer 1886 Dec quarter Chorlton 8c 477 (aged 65)

Joseph Mortimer 1895 Dec quarter Chorlton 8c 461 (aged 72)

At that stage i was researchingpersons whomay have married at about the time of my grandfather's birth (approx 1861) as I reasoned that a child who was very young at the time of a woman's second marriage (or even first marriage if she had a child out of wedlock) would be more likely to take the new step-father's surname than say a teenager.

Also I was looking for traces in areas that I knew my anscestors had lived in.

One final question...How in heavens name do you find the most amazing information that you do?

I know that I am a complete beginner at this but I would not have a clue how to do the indepth research that you present.

Again, my many thanks for your help and my apologies forputting an unintentional spoke in the wheel with that wrong information regardsing Joseph