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Brick Walls help on the Census Records***Michelle*

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 10 Feb 2012 18:51

Debbie

I expect you have already seen but living at 31 William Street is son Thomas and his wife and family on the 1891...back to looking for James

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 10 Feb 2012 18:42

Debbie

Hi :) Had a look and here i believe is Robert...did he have the middle name Patrick? They are under the surname Mullens with an e.

1891 England Census about Patrick Mullens
Name: Patrick Mullens
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Bridget Mullens
Gender: Male
Where born: Mayo, Ireland
Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Christchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 99
Folio: 45
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Patrick Mullens 58
Bridget Mullens 56

1891 England Census about Bridget Mullens
Name: Bridget Mullens
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Patrick Mullens
Gender: Female
Where born: Mayo, Ireland
Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Christchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 99
Folio: 45
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Patrick Mullens 58
Bridget Mullens 56

Address 27 William Street
Occupation of Patrick (Robert) Carpenter and Joiner

Will now look for James and Sarah

Debbie

Debbie Report 10 Feb 2012 11:02

Hi Michelle,

There is a couple I simply cannot find on the 1891 and was wondering if you could help. They married in 1885 but I do not think they had any surviving children in 1891. They are James Mullins born c1864 (probably in Marylebone but definitely in London) and Sarah born Marylebone in 1870. The London Electoral Register for 1891 shows James living in 27 William Street Marylebone. This was the same address as his father Robert Mullins who I also cannot find on the census. Robert and his wife Bridget were both born in Ireland c1831.

Thank you,

Debbie

Debra

Debra Report 10 Feb 2012 07:02

Hi Michelle

May or may not be something

1861 Scottish Census
Name: James Graham
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary Graham
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration number: 574
Registration district: Port Glasgow ****** 4 miles from Greenock - 1891 census Margaret said to be born in Greenock Scotland *****
Civil parish: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Princes St
Occupation: Quay Labourer - ******* Could this be another name for Coast Guardsman *********
ED: 9
Household schedule number: 109
Line: 17
Roll: CSSCT1861_81
Household Members: Name Age
James Graham 32
Mary Graham 29 ******Born Ireland******

probably the same family in 1881 Scottish census
Name: James Graham
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary Graham
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration number: 574
Registration district: Port Glasgow
Civil parish: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Scotts Lane
Occupation: Labourer
ED: 13
Household schedule number: 30
Line: 9
Roll: cssct1881_176
Household Members: Name Age
James Graham 59
Mary Graham 58

Debra

Debra Report 9 Feb 2012 21:34

Hi Michelle

Interesting lead, will see if I can find anything as well.

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 8 Feb 2012 18:52

Debra

Sorry I haven't been online...been v busy in real life!

Found this one... maybe nothing... ? Going to look a little further into this.

1881 England Census about Margt. Graham
Name: Margt. Graham
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: 123 Ellison Street
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Domestic Servant
Registration district: South Shields
Sub-registration district: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 31b
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5026
Folio: 65
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
John Mc Mahon 24
Mary Mc Mahon 19
Michel Mc Mahon 1
John Mc Mahon
Patrick Mc Reynolds 28
Patrick Mc Laughlin 25
Margt. Graham 19

Wonder if Patrick is really McLoughlin ?

Ok back to checking on this, might be nothing.

Debra

Debra Report 7 Feb 2012 05:51

Morning Michelle

Interesting thought about Thomas's parentage, will keep that in mind.

Thank you for taking the time to look - any other info or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Debra

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 6 Feb 2012 01:17

Debra

I am going to come back to yours again tomorrow...very late here. I am so far only finding same things found before, no new leads as far.

Just a thought- It is always possible that Margaret came to England to have her son Thomas William Berry (Barry) and he was born out of wedlock. She could have entered a father's name using her maiden name Berry and previous name for herself to make it look more respectable?

I have seen many widows remarry...and can't see why she would list herself a spinster if she had been married before? But can see why she would cover the fact she had a child out of wedlock.

Anyway off to zzz i go and back to this with fresh eyes after work tomorrow.

Michelle

Debra

Debra Report 5 Feb 2012 22:07

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/trying%20to%20find%20gt%20gt%20grandparents/thread/1182703

Michelle

Above is the link to my thread re the Conmy family - in the early part of the thread you will find everything re this part of my tree.

In answer to your questions

1. Marriage cert - both Margaret and her father are recorded as Barry
2. James' occupation Guardsman Coast
3. Witnesses Mary McLoughlin & Michael Coughlin

Regards
Debra

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 5 Feb 2012 21:27

Debra

Hi Debra, just come online and will take a look to see what I can find. Can i ask couple of questions:

1) Need to confirm re this marriage cert of 1886. Was her name listed as Margaret Berry? and you mentioned her father listed as James Barry? is this meant to be Berry?
2) What was father Jame's occupation on the marriage cert?
3) Who were the witnesses on the marriage cert?


Thanks Debra :-D

Michelle

Debra

Debra Report 5 Feb 2012 16:36

Hi Michelle

Revisiting some brick walls within my tree -

I have the birth cert for Thomas Wm Berry b Union Workhouse Selby 1883, mother Margaret Berry formerly Graham, father William Berry bricklayer and Scaffolder.

I suspect that Thomas Wm Berry is the step brother of my Gt Gran Mary Beatrice Conmy. From all the different certs purchased I believe Margaret marries my Gt Gt Grandad Frank Conmy in 1886 but on the marriage cert she shows as a spinster, father James Barry.

Are you able to find a marriage between Margaret & William. Margaret is either Irish or Scottish but have now ideas about William.

Many thanks
Debra

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 5 Feb 2012 13:10

Free to help :-D

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 29 Jan 2012 00:15

Herbert

Happy to have helped Herbert. If I can help with anything else, let me know! Good luck with your research.

Michelle

Bertikins

Bertikins Report 29 Jan 2012 00:10

Michelle, marriage 1 is the right one. I am sure the information I put on my tree as accurate. Not too happy with Reginald's death as I have been told it was earlier then that, but never mind I'll leave it blank. Please don't waste time on the Dexters, I am happy with what I have on them, and will follow up the certificates some time.
The Wakefield area is another big coincidence. My daughter and her husband are living in Dewsbury, very near my ex-wife and her husband. Probably coincidences this big ought to be called "coincisaurus rex".
Herbert

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 29 Jan 2012 00:04

Herbert

Glad you have sent messages to the other tree matches. Let me know what they say, I will be interested. I just checked Ancestry and there are 2 trees there that also list Albert Claud as son of Georgina.

You mentioned Rosa Sharpe interesting to see who was lodging with the family on the 1901!!

1901 England Census about John Tom Clipston
Name: John Tom Clipston
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Oundle, Northamptonshire, England
Civil parish: Peterborough Within St John the Baptist
Ecclesiastical parish: Peterborough St Paul
Town: Peterborough
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Peterborough
Sub-registration district: Peterborough
ED, institution, or vessel: 47
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 68
Piece: 1465
Folio: 67
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
William Sharpe 61
Rachael Sharpe 60
Emily Jane Sharpe 24
Rosa Elizabeth Sharpe 20
John Tom Clipston 21

William Engine Driver
John a Railway Labourer

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 28 Jan 2012 23:50

Herbert

So we have this same problem. Looking at the marriage record which looks to be the correct one for Doris. The names of the children of Doris and Reginald look to be correct from your memory. I have looked at who she married: Reginald R Dexter the record said. If we presume he was also from this area and we put into the search engine the name Reginald R Dexter as the marriage record states, these are the results, and only matching results:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Reginald Richard Dexter
Name: Reginald Richard Dexter
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1896
Registration district: Peterborough
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 254 (click to see others on page

There is only 1 other Reginald but he has middle name George and is born in London area.

The only 1901 matching the record above:

1901 England Census about Richard R Dexter
Name: Richard R Dexter
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Wm Dexter
Mother's name: Fanny Dexter
Gender: Male
Where born: Peterborough, Northamptonshire, England
Civil parish: Peterborough Within St John the Baptist
Ecclesiastical parish: Peterborough St Mark
Town: Peterborough
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Peterborough
Sub-registration district: Peterborough
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 165
Piece: 1464
Folio: 74
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Dexter 41
Fanny Dexter 40
Sidney F Dexter 12
Richard R Dexter 5
Dora Dexter 3

I have posted this record before. It is the only match.

Looking for marriages for a Reginald R Dexter we only get 3 matches:

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005 about Reginald R Dexter
Name: Reginald R Dexter
Spouse Surname: Sharpe
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1922
Registration district: Peterborough
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Volume Number: 3b
Page Number: 410
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Doris Sharpe is bride

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005 about Reginald R Dexter
Name: Reginald R Dexter
Spouse Surname: Sewell
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1938
Registration district: Docking
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume Number: 4b
Page Number: 745
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Margery D Sewell is bride

This next record is a total NO as it is 1977

So we are left with the choice of the 2 above. As you are certain the mother of the children was definitely Doris then the 1st marriage record must be the right one.

Then to the death. I looked for a death of a Reginald R Dexter birthyear 1896 this is the result:
England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005 about Reginald R Dexter
Name: Reginald R Dexter
Birth Date: abt 1896
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1961
Age at Death: 65
Registration district: Cambridge
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire
Volume: 4a
Page: 166

If i just search for a Reginald Dexter (leaving out middle name) I get same result. There are no other matches. So this concludes that Reginald R Dexter who was born in 1896 died in 1961.

Looking for deaths for Doris Dexter based on the 1896 Doris Sharpe birth record i posted the results are:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005 about Doris Dexter
Name: Doris Dexter
Birth Date: abt 1897
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1952
Age at Death: 55
Registration district: Peterborough
Inferred County: Huntingdonshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 552

This is the only other record near 1896 birthyear of Doris Sharpe

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005 about Doris Irene Dexter
Name: Doris Irene Dexter
Birth Date: 16 Dec 1900
Date of Registration: Feb 1990
Age at Death: 89
Registration district: Leicestershire Central
Inferred County: Leicestershire
Volume: 6
Page: 1643

The 1952 record is the only one in Northamptonshire

To be certain you will need to get certificates. The birth cert of one of her children to confirm parents as Doris and Reginald and then the marriage cert of 1922. The marriage cert will show ages of both Doris and Reginald, which will help with birthyears confirmation. It will show both father's names and occupations. This makes checking against 1901-1911 easier. If we are lucky there maybe a family member as a witness also.

This is the only way forward with this. Once you have the confirmation, which I am pretty certain will match what I have found, the census records will be easy to find the way back on both lines. I have seen both lines in earlier census records.

Michelle






Bertikins

Bertikins Report 28 Jan 2012 23:08

Michelle it looks like it. I found a reference to Claude on two other trees when i put him on my tree. The date of birth agreed as did the Marylybone. I have sent massages to both tree owners querying if their Claude is the one I have.
His occupation fits as both John and my grandfather Herbert William were working on the Railways.
Incidentally did you notice on my mini tree that Herbert eventually married Emily Jane Clipston, and her brother John (known as Jack) married Rosa Sharpe ? This was due to Herbert and Jack being railwaymen and living in the same area. Coincidences can be odd, this one giving the complicated relationship between the three families.
Herbert

Bertikins

Bertikins Report 28 Jan 2012 23:08

Michelle it looks like it. I found a reference to Claude on two other trees when i put him on my tree. The date of birth agreed as did the Marylybone. I have sent massages to both tree owners querying if their Claude is the one I have.
His occupation fits as both John and my grandfather Herbert William were working on the Railways.
Incidentally did you notice on my mini tree that Herbert eventually married Emily Jane Clipston, and her brother John (known as Jack) married Rosa Sharpe ? This was due to Herbert and Jack being railwaymen and living in the same area. Coincidences can be odd, this one giving the complicated relationship between the three families.
Herbert

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 28 Jan 2012 23:02

Herbert

I think this is Doris birth record

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Doris Sharpe
Name: Doris Sharpe
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1896
Registration district: Peterborough
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 262 (click to see others on page)

All the children of Doris and Reginald were born in Northamptonshire area. So looking for the marriage of Doris this marriage seems the only right one:

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005 about Doris Sharpe
Name: Doris Sharpe
Spouse Surname: Dexter
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1922
Registration district: Peterborough
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Volume Number: 3b
Page Number: 410
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

As you know this record lists Reginald R Dexter as her spose. It looks right for not only the area, but also for the fact they had their first child following year after marriage.

Michelle

***Michelle***

***Michelle*** Report 28 Jan 2012 22:47

Herbert

Last thing on Albert, thought I would post because it is interesting:

UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1963 about Albert Claude Popple
Name: Albert Claude Popple
Birth Date: 10 Feb 1887
Age: 15
Residence Date: 9 Oct 1902
Station: Spalding
Company: London and North Eastern
Class Number: 397
Piece: 2
Description: Returns of staff at stations and depots as at 31 oct. 1939 1939

He earns £3 15 s at this time. This is 1939 so he is not 15 as listed above! Yet another error!