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The 1901 census household:


Albert Barnard 28
Ellen Barnard 24
Mary M Barnard 3
Emily Barnard 1


There's no Mary Barnard birth in that vicinity 1896-1899.

Nor is there an Emily Barnard birth in the vicinity 1898-1901.

But neither are there any Richie or Marsland births to match those names in that vicinity.


There's no Ellen Richie in the 1901, however. (Or Daisy Richie, since we don't know at this point whom Albert Richie married.) So I think this may well be the answer.

This looks like the Albert Richie in question:

Births Dec 1875
Ritchie Albert Newcastle T. 10b 103


And his spouse and son may more likely be the Isabella Ritchie and Albert Richie (3 wks) in Shoreditch in 1901, marriage Newcastle 1900.


This looks maybe more like the Albert Richie who married Ellen Marsden in 1897 -- in 1891:

Name: Albert Richie
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, London, England

Can't find him in 1881 or 1901. Or a birth 1878-1882.

Hi Evie Beavie,

I've just checked this thread again after a 10 days or so (as I thought there was no more to be found, I stupidly hadn't checked it sooner), and was so pleased to see your reply. Thank you so much, it must've taken you ages to look all that up for me.

I am a little confused though (sorry!!). Do you think that Ellen Marsland married Albert Richie in 1897 and then 'moved in' with Albert Barnard while Albert Richie was away in the Navy but she never married Albert Barnard?

1901 census shows Ellen living with Albert Barnard & her 2 children - Margaret & Emily who are named as Barnard but I guess Margaret could've been Albert Richie's child as she was born only the following quarter to their marriage? If you look closely at the census, it definately says Margaret & not Mary M and Emily didn't use her first name of Beatrice!!

Albert Richie was in Gibraltar in the Royal Navy.

I have a note of the births of the 2 children but don't actually have the birth certificates, maybe I should buy Margaret's at least. The details are -

Mar quarter 1898: Margaret Ellen Barnard, Reg District Greenwich (Deptford comes under this Reg district)

Jun quarter 1900: Beatrice Emily Barnard, Reg District Greenwich

If I have got this right then I can see that Ellen never married Albert Barnard because she was still married to Albert Richie but why can't we find a birth for Albert Barnard?

Also, who are Albert, Isabella & baby Albert in Shoreditch in the 1901 census - are these nothing to do with mine but just, coincidently, have similar names?

Bit confusing isn't it? But great that you found it all out, thanks very much.

Sue

Hi Sue, thanks for the PM -- I check "My Threads" all the time so I'll see updates. And here we are.

Do I think ...? ;)

I dunno. I see coincidences, I want to follow them up. It's led to many things in my own tree, doing that.

Did she marry Richie and shack up with Barnard? It certainly looks like a possibility.

Ah, okay, so the births are there as Barnard. I'd lost the train of thought on the names (from your first post).

The Isabella came into it because there was a choice of two Albert Richies -- I think the one in Gibraltar, born in Northumberland, is maybe more likely to be the one married to the Isabella. And the one who shows in 1891 as born in Southwark more likely to be the husband of (an) Ellen Marsland in that marriage.


How about ... Albert Barnard was actually Albert Richie?


What else there isn't is a Robert Barnard + Ellen marriage, 1851-1901, in the vicinity (there are marriages in Shoreditch, Hackney and Islington).

Per the 1891, Robert and Ellen were both born in Deptford. No reason they would have married somewhere else.

The 1891 household:

Robert Barnard 57
Ellery Barnard 49
Albert Barnard 16
William Smith 59 - boarder
Elizabeth Smith 47 - boarder

(You should go to Ancestry and correct "Ellery" to Ellen. Someone might see the note and contact you some day.)


Going to search around some more ...

Robert Barnard in 1861:


Name: Robert Barnard
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Occupation: Hammerman
Condition as to marriage: ditto to Unmarried above

Civil Parish: Deptford St Nicholas
Town: Deptford
County/Island: Kent

Alone in household at 7 Steam Packet. I guess that's a street name -- the preceding one is Stowage. Odd.


So he and Ellen got together between 1861 and 1871.

My suspicion is that Ellen had a pre-existing marriage and so she and Robert didn't marry (can't find one for him, so that points to her). She and Robert are together in 1871, so Albert would presumably be their child, but possibly registered under her surname.

I still think that marriage is too coincidental, name-wise.

Marriages Dec 1897
Marsland Ellen St. Olave 1d 621
RICHIE Albert Bernard St. Olave 1d 621

Since we *know* Ellen was Ellen Marsland

Births Dec 1876
MARSLAND Ellen Greenwich 1d 925

Also, there just was no other Ellen Marsland born anywhere near in time and space, to account for the Richie-Marsland marriage.

And yet that 1891 cenus entry for 11-yr-old Albert Richie in Southwark looks like the marrying Albert Richie.


In 1891, there are two unmarried candidates for the Marsland-Richie marriage in the vicinity:

Your Ellen:

Name: Ellen Marsland
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward
Mother's Name: Paulina
Gender: Female
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England
Civil Parish: St Nicholas

and a rather old Ellen:

Name: Ellen Marsland
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Emma
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Hackney


I think I would get the Richie-Marsland marriage and see what it has to say, is what I would do. Mainly because I can't think of anything else!

Meanwhile, just for interest, this looks like Robert:


ROBERT FRANCIS BARNARD
Christening: 10 JUL 1831 Saint Nicholas, Deptford, London, England
Father: EDMUND BARNARD
Mother: SARAH
Batch No.: P001622

No siblings in that batch, unfortunately!!


But given this christening:

Eliza Barnard
Birth: 03 MAR 1822 Beckham,Beckham, , Norfolk, England
Christening: 12 MAR 1822 St Michael Paternoster Royal, , London, England
Father: Edmond Barnard
Mother: Sarah Ann
Batch No.: C146248

it is vaguely possible that the submitted 1818 marriage of Edmund Barnard and Sarah Ann Rook in Norfolkis Robert's parents. (Also a son Jacob Barnard 1835 Norfolk.) But it seems unlikely.

Robert Barnard in parents' household in 1841:

Edward Barnard 40 - born in Kent
Sarah Barnard 40
Sarah Barnard 18
Elizabeth Barnard 16
Howard Barnard 12
George Barnard 10
Robert Barnard 9
Susanna Barnard 7
Edward Barnard 5

(i.e. not that Norfolk couple)

And of course, if Albert Barnard wasn't his son ... it doesn't matter. ;)

EDWARD BARNARD
Spouse: SARAH YOUNG
Marriage: 25 NOV 1822 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England
Batch No.: M006321


Results for: Barnard, British Isles
Batch Number: M006321

1. MARY BARNARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 02 OCT 1810 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England
2. THOMAS BARNARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 21 AUG 1830 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England
3. ANN BARNARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 30 JUL 1801 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England
4. EDWARD BARNARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 25 NOV 1822 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England
5. HARRIET BARNARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 25 AUG 1817 Saint Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England


Possible relations.

However, I checked at Hugh Wallis's site

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm#Menu

and in the batch for christenings 1831-1837, C006322, just for example, there are children of other Barnards, so it's hard to say who would be related to whom.

Evie Beavie - Thanks once again for spending time to help.

Its very interesting what you are saying but, as I had 15 people to dinner today (belated extended family Christmas lunch & I did a Christmas roast!!) and they have only just left from 11.30 this morning!!!, my head is spinning. I think I need to print off your replies & sit quietly to go thorugh them tomorrow afternoon when I'm at home on my own.

Who would've thought a possibilty that both Robert & Ellen and Ellen and Albert didn't marry - bit of a rough lot I'd say!!!! :-)

Speak tomorrow & thanks, Sue x

hey dont want to put a damper on things but barnard is a gypsy name and i know the trouble i am having i can confirm my g-g grandmother as amelia maria lovage but not my g-g- grandfather! yet i can confirm there kids via maiden name but no cencus listing only older relations knowlege and free bmd birth search. good luck

Re what Paula said -- there was indeed a query here a while ago about Barnard in Kent in connection with a Roma family.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1021885

"I'm trying to find any information on Elizabeth Barnard, born around 1892 in Hoo, Kent, so I was led to believe. She married a romany man called Phineas Lee and they had children called Jane,Rose, Robert (Bobby) and Emily. I know they eventually lived, in what was known at the time as Cherry Island-Plaistow."


I'll come clean. I have Barnards in my tree. ;)

I have been in contact with someone who has a Comfort Barnard born in about 1806, apparently in Bristol -- that's where she married, and she was in Kent in the 1841, but didn't survive to the 1851 to get more birth data for her. She doesn't seem to be related to me (I met her descendant because we were both chasing stray Barnards), but her descendant understands that Comfort is a Roma name.

I don't think she'd every heard that in connection with Barnard -- I certainly hadn't! But it could explain my own getting shifted around under the Poor Law back before 1800 ...

Paula, I'd be very interested in more about this, and I'm sure Sue wouldn't mind it if you'd expand a bit on it here!

This is your thread, Paula:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1123456

(the other is a duplicate)

I'd be very interested if you want to post more there about the Barnard - Roma bit.

Oh my word, gypsies!!! I'll never find them!!!

Sorry I didn't come back sooner EvieBeavie but I've been deliberating what to do ..... and I've had a horrible cold!!! I still haven't ordered the Ellen Marsland/Albert Richie marriage cert yet as I decided to wait to look Albert & Ellen Barnard up on the 1911 census which I have now done.

They are definately there in Pender Street, Deptford. Albert is a Sheet Iron Worker (would a gypsy do that?) and it def says that they have been married for 14 years. It also says that they have had 10 children but 5 of them had died - thats sad!!

We have found all of the Barnard's in all census, haven't we? I think, therefore, its unlikely that they were gypsies because they didn't move about too much.

What shall I do?

Well -- I really would order the Albert Bernard Richie - Ellen Marsland marriage. If all it does is rule it out. Sometimes you do have to rule out decisively and move away. ;) And hopefully find another direction to move in.

If there were any other live possibilities, I'd say go for them, but I just am not seeing any!

How about deaths for Robert and Ellen (Sr)?

Deaths Mar 1910
Barnard Robert Francis 73 Greenwich 1d 511

Deaths Mar 1921
Barnard Ellen 76 Greenwich 1d 1067

?

That would make him born c1837, and her born c1845.

Sometimes ages at birth are nice and accurate, more so than censuses. Sometimes they're wildly off.

I was looking for middle names/initials that might help, particularly with Ellen, but nothing there for her, if that's her.

I don't see either in the 1911 census.

Hi Sue
I am also looking fo a family of this name,
I have found records with a number of variants that do not necessarily come up with a soundex search.
Burnand Barnard or Bernand
Mine are in Bethnal Green and Shadwell.
Just a thought for you.
Christine

Right, I've ordered the Marsland - Richie marriage certificate and await with baited breath!!! Will let you know what it says as soon as I receive it.

Thank you Christine, but I also looked under Bernard & Burnard but Albert wasn't there either!!

Sue

Just book marking this as I want to know that answer too. Had ancestors from Frenches Fields and Stowage just around the corner from your Barnards.