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Janey

I have just ordered Alice birth cert delivery should be 03/12/10

I will post those detail's when I get them

Edward and Isabella could be her parent's


Thanks again

Deb

Edit Thanks Janey x

Moody Blue

Thanks for your reply

again it is getting very confusing

I have ordered Alice Birth cert (born 1884) so I hope it will throw some light on who her father and mother was

Deb

Looking on London Baptisms, is this entry:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Alice Bilbrough
Name: Alice Bilbrough
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1879 (born May 24)
Baptism Date: 15 Jun 1879
Father's name: Edward Bilbrough
Mother's name: Elizabeth Bilbrough
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St James the Great
Borough: Tower Hamlets

fathers occupation:- cabinet maker
address: 33 new Nichol st


Is this just a coincidence? Although she is 5 years older than your Alice Bilbrough!

the other childre?

George Bilbrough 9 Nov 1873
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets

George Bilbrough 22 Nov 1874
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets


Elizabeth Bilbrough 30 Jan 1876
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets


Harriet Bilbrough 30 Jan 1876
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets


James Bilbrough 20 May 1877
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets


Alice Bilbrough 15 Jun 1879
Edward Bilbrough,Elizabeth Bilbrough Bethnal Green St James the Great Tower Hamlets

Birth of the youngest child of Edward Bilbrough Jr:

Births Sep 1898
Bilbrough Isabella Bethnal G. 1c 193

In 1901 he is a widower. Where is the death of his wife Isabella?

This person is slightly too young:

Deaths Sep 1899
Bilbrough Isabella 31 Whitechapel 1c 207

Births Jun 1866
Clubb Isabella Bethnal Green 1c 275
=33 in Q3 1899, but it must be her.

Again, no stone unturned, was wondering whether Isabella and Edward Bilbrough Jr were estranged, and Eleanor/Nellie maybe was actually Alice Bilbrough's (half) sister, Isabella's daughter. But it seems not.

Interesting baptism, MB. This is the birth reg:

Births Jun 1879
Bilbrough Alice Bethnal Green 1c 204

There's no death for that birth. But where would that one be in 1881??

Aha, here's the matching death:

Deaths Jun 1880
Bilborough Alice 0 Bethnal Green 1c 112

So Alice 1884 may have been named for. But still, where the heck is *she* in 1891??


MB -- it would save space and confusion if you deleted that 1901 census info, since I'd gone over it all already while you were searching. ;)

Seems there could have been another isabella born to this couple in 1890?

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Isabella Bilborough
Name: Isabella Bilborough
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1890
Baptism Date: 9 Feb 1890
Father's name: Edward Bilborough
Mother's name: Isabella Bilborough
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Philip
Borough: Tower Hamlets

born 08 Feb 1890
fathers occuoation: Cabinet maker
address: 16 Virginia Row

Marriage of Edward Junior:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Edward Bilbrough
Name: Edward Bilbrough (bachelor, toilet maker)
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: Isabella Chubb (Spinster)
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 26 Sep 1886
Parish: St Jude, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Edward Bilbrough (decd) Publican
Spouse Father Name: Edward Chubb, Cork Cutter

address for Edward: 61 Pollard Row
address for Isabella: 7My*in Place, Mount Street


a 2nd marriage?
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Edward Billbrough
Name: Edward Billbrough (widower, Cabinet maker)
Age: 54
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: Eliza Davis (widow,box maker)
Spouse Age: 41
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 07 Dec 1919
Parish: St Jude, Bethnal Green
County: London
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Billbrough ( deceased, Licenced victualler)
Spouse Father Name: John Emmett

address :29 Hollybush Gardens

Edwards fathers name appears to have changed to George??

The marriage of Elizabeth Bilbrough is of the daughter born 1868:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Elizabeth Bilbrough
Name: Elizabeth Bilbrough (spinster)
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Spouse Name: George William Potts (bachelor, Carrier)
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 24 May 1885
Parish: St Thomas, Stepney
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Edward Bilbrough (Cabinet maker)
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Potts (Carrier)

George Potts address: 25 Ernest St
Elizabeths: 31 Ernest St
Witnesses: Alfred Bilbrough, elizabeth Whiteh*ad

I think it really is Isabella CLubb, as in the marriage registration I posted. As I said, I tracked her back in censuses, and she is with father Edward Clubb (Club), a cork cutter.

Isabella 1890 daughter of Edward Bilbrough Jr and Isabella Clubb died 1890 as well.


For the Potts-Bilbrough marriage, you're so right. It must be me who mistook Eliz Sr for Eliz Jr. It's Elizabeth, William's sister, daughter of Edward and Elizabeth Bilbrough, not William's mother, who married George Potts.

So the couple that William and Alice are living with in 1901 are William's sister and her husband.

William was living with them in 1891, along with his sister Harriet. But Alice wasn't.

Perhaps Alice 1884 is the daughter of Elizabeth Bilbrough Potts ... but why name Edward as her father on her marriage certificate?

Re the birth of Alice Bilbrough in 1879 and a death in 1880, ther are two Alice Bilbroughs born in 1879 in Bethnal Green.

(1)
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Alice Bilbrough
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1879
Baptism Date: 15 Jun 1879
Father's name: Edward Bilbrough
Mother's name: Elizabeth Bilbrough
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St James the Great
Borough: Tower Hamlets


(2)
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Alice Bilbrough
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1879
Baptism Date: 31 Oct 1879
Father's name: Henry Bilbrough
Mother's name: Alice Bilbrough
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Philip
Borough: Tower Hamlets

I wonder which one was the death in 1880?

Thanks Moody Blue and Janey

This just seem's to get stranger as the time goes on

the only thing which i think we now going by her marriage cert is that Alice's Dad Was Edward Bilbrough and he was a Cabnet Maker and that he was Decessed by 1909

But cant find a death for him which i would get as well just to see who registered it hopefully his wife, So then it would confirm that ive got the correct Birth cert for Alice when it arrives

As there seems to be so many of them

Deb

Edit

Could this be his death or not going by the birh of Alice (oh i dont know)

Deaths Dec 1879 (99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bilborough Edward 35 Bethnal Green 1c 141


Would you suggest that I get that as well and hopefully the wife registered his birth ?

Deb

That death is Edward Sr, Debbie, father of Edward Jr. His wife is a widow in the next census, as I recall.

The Edward who may be the father of Alice is most likely to be Edward Jr.

Edward Jr is in the 1911 -- not dead:

BILBROUGH EDWARD 1866 45 Bethnal Green London
BILBROUGH JAMES 1893 18
BILBROUGH HARRIET 1894 17
BILBROUGH ALFRED 1896 15
BILBROUGH ISABELLA 1899 12

So hmm. Not dead.

Name: Edward Bilbrough
Death Registration Month/Year: 1929
Age at death (estimated): 62
Registration district: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 83

But Edward Sr died 5 years before Alice was supposedly born.

Re the two Alice Bilbroughs baptised 1879

1. June, parents Edward and Elizabeth, St James the Great
2. October, parents Henry and Alice, St Philip
(note - St Phillips is where Edward Jr household is in 1891)

Only the first one was registered:

Births Jun 1879
Bilbrough Alice Bethnal Green 1c 204

There is no marriage of a Henry Bilb* to an Alice. There's no Alice Bilb* in the 1881 census with those parents. There's no Henry or Alice anything like Bilbrough anywhere near Bethnal Green in 1881. There's no birth of such a Henry. Or, if that was the mother Alice's surname, of such an Alice, except Alice Bilbrough 1856 Tadcaster.

The daughter of Edward Sr and Elizabeth seems not to have survived, as she isn't with the family in 1881.

So who is the other one?


There are two Alices in BG in 1881 with parents Henry and Alice.


Henry Hall 21 >> Chair Carver (Cabinetmaker)
Alice Hall 19 - Alice How, mar Mar 1879 BG?
Alice Hall 1
Sopia G. Hall 5 mo

Births Dec 1880
HALL Sophia Bethnal Green 1c 178

Births Sep 1879 ?
Hall Alice Rebecca Bethnal Green 1c 172
- probably married 1906 BG


Henry Ambrose 24 - Horse Hair Dresser
Alice Ambrose 22 - no marriage found
Alice S. Ambrose 1

Births Jun 1881 ? late reg?
AMBROSE Alice Sophia Bethnal Green 1c 166
> no marriage or death for this person ever
- edit - Alice Sophia Ambrose daughter of Harry Ambrose and Alice Knight, born 1879 England, married in Michigan 1897. Harry and Alice married Poplar 1879.


Nooooo idea.

Thanks Again Janey

I just hope the certifcate of who we think is Alice's birth come's quick

their are so many things that dont add up. Hopefully it will all become clear ( I live in hope lol )

Deb

I have received the Birth Certificate today

Births Sep 1884 Bilbrough Alice Mile End 1c 506

But I'm not convinced that this is the right Alice

She was born on 13/05/1884 her parents was a Edward Bilbrough a Green Grocer and her mother was Elizabeth Bilbrough nee Downes. The birth was not registered untill the 29/06/1884

They lived at 103 Globe Road Bethnal Green

What puts a big ? is that on her marriage cert her father was a Cabinet Maker (not a Green Grocer)

Looks like it could be back to the drawing board :(

Deb

Well, I think it's the right one.

Elizabeth is the wife of Edward Sr the chair maker. She was a widow. And she had a child with someone who wasn't Edward Bilbrough, but was a green grocer.

These are the parents of Edward Jr., etc.:

Marriages Dec 1868
Bilbrough Edward Mile End 1c 1066
Downs Elizabeth Mile End 1c 1066

So I think that's the answer.

Elizabeth is a widow in the 1881 census, and is a beer retailer. The address is 33 New Nichol St. I haven't found 103 Globe Road in 1881 -- other addresses on Globe Road, but not that one.


Elizabeth (Downs) Bilbrough in 1881:

Name: Elizth. Belborough
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green

So this will be her death:

Deaths Jun 1898
Bilbrough Elizabeth 52 Mile End 1c 279


I think we didn't find her in 1891. And I expect that's because she is living under another surname, with the man she partnered with, and likely with Alice.

I'm not finding a household to fit in 1891 on a fairly quick look. In 1881 (where you can search by address and occupation at Ancestry) there are four greengrocers on Globe Road, but none seems likely.

I have to get some work done today but late afternoon (evening your time) I'll take a better look, unless somebody gets there before me. ;)

If we can find the surname Alice grew up with, i.e. her mother's new partner's surname, we may find the surname Eleanor/Nellie was registered under.

Thanks Janey

Deb

1881 England Census
about Robt. Summerville
Name: Robt. Summerville
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Margt. Summerville
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil Parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London
Country: England

>>>>>>>>>>>Street address: 103 Globe Road
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Green Grocer

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Robt. Summerville 66
Margt. Summerville 64


1891 England Census
about John Finn
Name: John Finn
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Julia Finn
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, London, England

Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: Stepney St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England

>>>>>>>>Street address: 103, Globe Road, Mile End Old Town

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
John Finn 26 Greengrocer
Julia Finn 24
Mary A Hanby 33

Aaargh. One end of the d**ned road is in Bethnal Green, one end is in Mile End. And I was being too specific in my search!!

Well well. Did someone else take over the greengrocer by 1884?

Thanks Moody Blue and Janey

I wish I could get to the bottom of all this but it seems to be getting more and more complicated

I am trying to find out who lived at 103 Globe Road the Year Alice was born (1884) so hopefully that will throw a bit more light on everything. As the surnames so far are not giving any clues

Surely we are due a break through on this LOL

Deb :)