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uk arrivals -the last thread

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 5 Dec 2009 16:55

Oh great, change your name to Walden, then future generations of Weeks will never find you !

Colin

Colin Report 6 Dec 2009 00:48

L. Thats put a doubt in my mind but because of the way this has unfolded it gives the false illusion that Walters line has petered out. We know that this is not true as I am proof of that.
There are a number of relatives in England who I don't know and to see some of them and make contact not only for me but for my childrens sake is a very personal matter. I am coming to the realisation that this is the real reason for the search. In the total scheme of the things we have covered I guess the change of name for me and my immediate family is not of that much significance. This is the quandry I face.

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 6 Dec 2009 04:40

I think your grandmother started the false illusion with good reason !
After being deserted on the other side of the world and left in a fix,without the support of her family ,no doubt she didn't ever want to be reminded of Walter.
The only thing she couldn't change was Charles birth cert.
Walter also lied at this end about his marital status and took no part in your father's raising, so in modern parlance he was the biological father.
So full respect to Mr Weeks for doing a grand job.

That doesnt alter the fact that you are Walter's grandchild ,but whatever your reason for tracing him , let's get the facts straight.so you can tell your family the correct story. Then you can attempt to find any living relatives armed with the right information.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 6 Dec 2009 08:00

Good Morning Colin

I am looking forward to the outcome of the certificate that you have ordered and am pleased that you will share it with us.

I do agree with Lindsey that having the certificates for the ultimate proof is so important. That doesn't stop me from having a huge file labelled "yet to be proved". I have recently been working on my husband's English side and find it much more expensive as the certificates are £7 a time - much more expensive that finding our Scottish relatives! Irish ones are about the same price as the English ones and I have purchased a few of those recently. The good thing is that the information is not going anywhere and I can allocate a fixed amount each month for certificates to fill in the gaps in our trees. That's what makes this such a good hobby - it's never ending and you can put it down or pick it up again when time and finances permit.

The other thing, of course, is that really the certificates are just the start. It is amazing what information about our ancestors can be found using free sources to build up a more complete picture of their lives.

It is interesting that your ancestor left his wife and family in Australia and returned to England to continue his life. I have a granduncle who abandond his wife and young family in Glasgow to begin a new life in Australian using a different surname and pretending for many years to be married to another lady. I was still able to track him down!

Good luck with your search.

Colin

Colin Report 10 Dec 2009 04:58

Roots,
I visit my mail box the one outside my house eagerly every day eagerly waiting...waiting.
I now believe Lindsey is right about Annie Cox and Walt the Senior yet I still hope that the information is skewed somehow and that young Walt is the husband. Waiting...waiting.
Returning to the matter of the certificates. How many time do I have to flagellate myself. Yes I do understand and I thank all of you for reinforcing the need to do this. You are all correct.
I also agree with you about the thrill you get when you find a little bit more about any of your ancestors and it doesn't surprise me that you tracked down your grand- uncle despite the difficulties he created. Well done. I don't aspire to be an expert researcher although I respect those that are and those trying to get there.
Using L's info my Walter has only lived half his life so there must be a lot more to find out. This info will probably come from GR family contacts if they exist so that is my next plan of attack
Well thats gone a lot further than I anticipated so thanks again for your help.
The certificate is coming. Waiting...waiting.
Strongest regards to all.................colin

Colin

Colin Report 10 Dec 2009 10:07

In the short time since my last post I noticed a very important point that I raised earlier.
The 1911 census information that was posted showed Walter with the rest of his family and an Alice shown as Walters wife.It was disregarded on the basis that there are a lot of waldens and they were from a different adress. However the birthdate is accurate his employment is accurate and he is in the same general area as hi mother father and 2 brothers. The discrepancy is Alice who is shown as his wife of 6 years After the info we have found on my family, and this statement is now becoming more questionable, this should not surprise anyone.
A check on the 1911 census shows that it was completed on Sun 2nd Apr 1911,
Here now are known facts. Sarah arrived Fremantle about Feb 1911 Chas wm walden was born on the 18th Oct 1911. On my poor male reckoning the pregnancy would have to have occured around that time i.e. Feb..Did sarah lie about walters parentage and was it some-one else. It was not tom weeks' child. Was Walter working on the ship and would there be time to complete a round trip to be back in blighty by April. Very doubtful. Was he here when she arrived, don't know but doubtful. As for the evidence of his stay the electoral roll could have been entered by sarah for both of them. I have no other evidence at this time of his presence other than a return via southampton in 1914 of a Walter Walden.Was it him?
Further corroboration of the link to Walter is the info provided by L that his army papers showed the next of kin was ALICE batton This was during 1914 I believe.As I said at an earlier time I can't find a batton but there is a batten that might be the person in the 1911 census. That led to a tenuous connection with the Cox family.
I now understand with much greater clarity than ever the truth in the old rhyme that goes something like "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"
I am now more confused than when I started this quest.
Come on experts show me where I am wrong. I hope you can
....colin
PS still waiting waiting waiting for that certificate.

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 10 Dec 2009 20:58

Did we give this data before...

17 Chelmsford Street, Fulham

Reg. District: Fulham Sub District: North West Fulham
Parish: Fulham Enum. District: 30

Address: 17 Chelmsford St Fulham County: London

WALDEN, Walter Head Married 27 years M 45 1866 Wood Sawyer Parish Fulham
WALDEN, Ealain Wife Married F 45 1866 Parish Fulham
WALDEN, James Son M 14 1897 Parish Fulham
WALDEN, Alfred Son M 12 1899 Parish Fulham

Tracey x

Colin

Colin Report 11 Dec 2009 05:43

Tracey - Yes but its the other family that was shown at the samei time thats important. All the particulars for Walt match up and who is Alice?
I have just finished trawling the BMD's and Alice Batten was probably Alice maud Phillips b. in Kingston in Mar. Q 1885. See 2a 354 She became Alice m Batten in Sep Q 1909 at hampstead see 1a 1590.
The husband was Robert Woods Batten b. Sep Q 1881 in St Germans see 5c 42. He died in the Dec Q 1918, at age 37 in E. Stonehouse . see 5b 628.
There was an infant death recorded in the Jun Q of 1912 for a Robert W Batten in southampton IF walter arr. back via Southampton could this be some link.
I hope I haven't given Lindsey apoplexy with these comments but its all grist for the mill.
The bottom line is what part if any does she play in the walden families future?

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 11 Dec 2009 09:48

Colin

Am i missing something??

She became Alice Batten in 1909....but is on the 1911 census as Alice Walden...and her BATTEN husband doesn't die until 1918??

You need to find another Alice and also have a timeline on the desk!!!

Tracey xx

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 11 Dec 2009 09:53

It also has to be said, we have NO evidence Walter actually left at all???

It's highly possible she left him, took an opportunity to move away....she could have caught pregnant on the trip over (it would have been a considerable time)

It's also possible she has family there!! Have you checked for Aunts & Uncles leaving for Aus?

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you said it's possible the pregnancy had nothing to do with Walter.... I wonder if he ever knew??

Tracey x

Colin

Colin Report 11 Dec 2009 13:51

Tracey
Hi nice to have you back. Yes I know that they are both married and that their partners are still alive but that doesn't stop a lot of people entering illegal de facto relationships. What I've learnt so far is Walt is no gentleman.
Does this make sense now or am I right off the planet?
The second part of your questions echo my concerns. The evidence for him being in Aus is the birth cert. which lists a property in chelmsford rd north perth, Sarah being on the electoral roll for perth or swan division Ive forgotten the electorate and then his name as the father on the birth certificate and a couple of return shipping leads which I have to follow up. If I confirm either one then he was here. Sarah may have had some family here but I haven't followed that up.She did have at least one relative here her mums sister an aunt I think who died in an accident on what is know called great eastern highway. There may have been visits by others I just don't know.The strongest factor for me is his resemblance to the first 2 surviving children that Sarah bore.Chas and madge. both very similar to the height weight hair and eye colour of the description given in his enlistment papers. This forced supposition is confusing and is driving me crazy. Perhaps he was working for a shipping line and travelling between the 2 countries. I just do not know. ......................colin
PS Thanks for the download- great stuff.

Colin

Colin Report 11 Dec 2009 14:35

Tracey - Just had a rush of blood to the head IF alice batten is shown with her husband in the 1911 census its not her and you will be right and I need to find another Alice Batten.\Regards ..................colin

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 11 Dec 2009 15:48

Can I suggest the electoral roll for Chelmesford Street 1913/14/15 might be a good place to look , also for brother Alfred at Greyhound road after his marriage ?
You would need to contact Fulham library for the records.

I'm not in favour of basing your research purely on records pulled together from free bmd, that can be so misleading.


WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 11 Dec 2009 16:02

Colin have you ever considered they were as bad as each other??

Maybe she caught pregnant on the trip and she used the fact she was married to hide this and entered her husband as the father??

Chelmsford Road Perth?? are you getting places mixed up or did she actually move to the same address her husband was living at? Or is the rental details from the Uk..... can you please clarify.

I think personally you are needing to look for another Alice..... altho common, it's not THAT common that people lived together unmarried.... and certainly not in such a close proximety to her husband who was still livng....unless he was a serving man?

I cannot remember now but are you the son of the child born after the trip? It has to be said you may never be able to prove whom your Grandfather was, it's certainly looking more unlikely it was Walter!!

What was her arrival date and the birth date of the child again? have you calculated anything from these dates?


Tracey x

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 11 Dec 2009 16:22

Where did we say this one fitted in?

Victoria, Australia, Assisted and Unassisted Passenger Lists, 1839–1923
about Walter Levi Walden
Name: Walter Levi Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Age: 19
Arrival Date: 16 Apr 1884
Arrival Port: Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: London
Ship: Liguria
Nationality: English

This is Walter the father??

I hate being away from something for too long you forget where your at!

T x

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 11 Dec 2009 16:28

There is this one...

Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1909
State: Victoria
District: Wimmera
Subdistrict: Pyramid Hill

Living with a Sarah Ann Walden, he's a Coachbuilder (yours was a labourer, IE Unskilled)

then there's

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1916
State: Western Australia
District: Swan
Subdistrict: Albany

also living with a Sarah Ann Walden, this one is a Farmer....



T x

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 01:50

Lindsey I am pleased to see you are still taking an interest despite the lack of hard evidence which I admit is really worrying me. I appreciate your tip and will put it down as my second priority . My immediate task over this weekend is to finalise if I can the shipping info available through Find my past and Ancestry.As has been said before one or both have an entry for a Walter Walden arriving back through Southampton. There are so many vagaries in these records that I am preparing fmyself for the worst. If the worst happens on to your suggestion.

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 02:33

Tracey -Yes we do have a Chelmsford Rd here slightly different spelling and it is Rd not St. Coincindences abound.
Are they as bad as each other. May be but I like to think of Walter as the villain because I remember Sarah as being a very quiet yet sweet reserved person who like madge my aunt treated me and my mother very well, particularly after the death of Chas. my father in 1946. In recent times with the unfolding of information about walter and sarah my admiration has grown for this lady.
Turning to your other question about the only thing I can say with certainty is that Chas Wm Walden or Weeks as he was known is my dad. His father is open to question.
I now have more information as a result of your questions. I found a death entry for George Wilson b. 1873 Sarahs eldest brother and coincidentally the one that may have been in wormwood scrubs with walter in the 1901 census. He died in NthFremantle in 1955 . The age quoted 84 is a little out of wack but his parents names are acurate. A further check on ancestry and find my past show multiple entries for George wilson but they both have an entry for 1910 the date sarah left London. Very interesting and encouraging as she probably was not on her own and given their history Walter may have stowed away or even worked his passage as a deck hand or something similar.Remember his tattoos; Is there a shipping connection?
Thats all I have for now.......................colin

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 12 Dec 2009 02:57

I dont have FMP but I have World ancestry and as yet nothing shows up as positively him,

I do find it a bit curious that 2 Tattoos with ships etc would be worn by anyone who hadn't been to sea,

Of course none of the records are complete, so you may have to wait ages for more updates , it's only recently that marriages and baptism records for London have been released.for viewing.So if you can't find anything at the moment, try again in 6months, a year and so on.

Now there is nothing to stop you firing off an email to Fulham Library , it's all on the web and free, I'm sure they will fall over backwards to help you. But don't over complicate you enquiry, just ask for residents of the 2 addresses first.. You need to find out about Chelmsford street from 1904 to 1914 to see when Sarah leaves and Walter reappears.

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 06:53

Thanks again lindsey You must get up early over there. I will give the library a try.
The info from fmp is that George and his wife travelled to Fremantle on the Orvietto an Orient line top of the range cruiser carrying over a 1000 passengers. It left london docks on 28th Oct 1910 so they probably got into ftle ahead of the Omrah , the one Sarah was on.
There is a tenuous connection with an entry that places a L.Walton born 1885 arr London on 11th May 1912 on the Otranto. That ship departed Brisbane and sailed around the bottom of our country with its last port of call being Fremantle before setting sail for london.If I have to grasp at straws I probably will come back to that entry because it fits the pregnancy requirement. There was good info there but nothing concrete on or about Walter.