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uk arrivals -the last thread

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 08:15

Tracey - Your right about Alice Maud she is home with her husband where she belongs according to the census. Back to the drawing board.....colin

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 12 Dec 2009 12:27

As Walter is 26 in 1911, have you considered he may have already had his Naval career?

Have you searched Military marriages for a marriage of him and Alice?

Did he go to India? He's about the right age! She might be a colonial wife?

....sorry just throwing ideas into the waters...

T xx

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 13:09

Good stuff Tracey real lateral thinking Every idea is welcome because you just never know with this frustrating reseach.
I'm feeling a bit down because the entries I pinned a lot of hopes on have evaporated like dew on a hot summer morning.
The Walter Walden coming back into Southampton was an older family man travelling with his wife -Talk about deceptive practices I'd like to sue both companies for misrepresentation but then I'm new at this. There is a tantalising entry that places a Walter Walden age 39, which puts him in the ball park for his birth date, on the Berengaria out of new york on the 15th Dec 1925. Well I have plenty of credits left with both copanies so I might try chasing census info.
bye for now

Colin

Colin Report 12 Dec 2009 13:15

Lindsey
I've sent the request for info to the fulham library and it looks like they open on Sundays so I might get a quick response.
I'm off to bed Bye.

Colin

Colin Report 13 Dec 2009 04:19

Hey team -more info and its not looking good for me unless Walter is a crewman on probably P@O ships.Another friend of mind who knows I am chasing info on Walter sent a few attachments for me to look up On the last page of a lot of papers a strong possibility emerged that he was in Aus and was returning back to Eng..
The P@ O ship Osterley which left Australia in April 1910 arriving at Tilbury in Jun. had a Mr. Walden who boarded en-route at Fremantle.His classification is shown as Joiner. Does that mean he works as a cabinet maker or does it mean he joined the ships crew? In any event he travelled 3rd class That would be Walter; all class. He left the ship at Plymouth.This adds to the very early comments by Ginny in this thread.
Given the past history of this research I am not getting too disappointed in the early return date because there is a possibility he is crewing on ships.
Having him as my grandfather would be better than not knowing my real grandfather.
Mathematically speaking its still possible for Walter to get a return trip to Fremantle. He may have been on the ship Sarah sailed on or any other.
He had to be there when she arrived or arrived with her which would have given them a window of opportunity of a few weeks. As we all know it only takes one night.He then had to leave early Feb 1911 to be back for the census. Pie in the sky or possible???

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 13 Dec 2009 08:51

OK

Walter Walden is a Labourer.... this means he is skilled at NOTHING!

A Joiner is someone who works with wood, a skilled job, this is not your Walter...

I know you want all of these people to be him, and even you now have to admit what we have said all along, you are clutching at straws!!!

Your Walter was an unskilled man living with someone else in Apr 1911.. it takes months for a trip from Aus to Eng, i very much doubt he'd rush it!!!

For him to be living as man and wife with someone he's proably not married to but suggesting he is would take time..... it's not a fast decision, they would lose nothing by stating on the census one was just simply 'boarding' with the other.... Happens all the time....

They made an effort to represent themselves as man and wife...

Now i have to ask, going back to the beginning, how do you know this poor man (Walter Levi Walden) is actually your Walter Walden ??.... bearing in mind nothing i have seen from Aus mentions the 'Levi' at all... is this a person you have stumbled across and have therefore assumed as with other ideas that he is YOUR Walter Walden???

Can you please confirm with facts and surity this Walter Levi Walden is your man??


Tracey x

Colin

Colin Report 13 Dec 2009 10:55

Tracey Hi I'm sensing your frustration. Two quick answers
1. The term Joiner was first used by Ginny on 21st Nov when this thread started I asume ginny knows a lot more about shipping passenger terms than most people do and she used a lower case "j" to describe joiner. I have already said I dont know if it is being used used in the sense of carpenter and joiner, hence the question. One of the knowledgeable researchers that reads this thread will know the answer and hopefully let us know if it has a nautical meaning. L's teachings ensure I do not take anything for granted anymore.
2 The second name is not a problem. Walter Levi Walden is shown on my fathers official birth record from the WA,Registry as being my fathers parent. His wife is Sarah. I have their marriage certificate and both Walter Levi Waldens are named on it.The man she married and his father . Because he married really young Walter b. 1885 has tried to hide the date of his birth at various times but on the baptism evidence it shows as late 1885 and on the BMD as Mar. Q 1886. Both documents carry the Levi name He really does exist and his second name is Levi.
And finally; yes; I am clutching at straws and this would be so for 99% of people in my position.
Hope this info helps you to understand where I am coming from. Regards. .............colin

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 13 Dec 2009 23:04

Hi There

Yeah frustration a little.... the postal system and the pure lack of anything tangable on WLW !!!

Did you have a look at Military marriages? We need to extablish where Sarah left the picture and Alice arrive....

So we know Sarah was in Aus Oct time 1910 and we know Walter was in the UK Apr 1911, and we know Sarah had a baby Nov time 1911??

Call me daft but Walter would not have had enough time to get Sarah pregnant in Aus and be back in time for the 1911 census?

You said previously.... "Sally has kindly confirmed that she has located Mrs Sarah Walden departing London 7th Jan 1910 destination Fremantle on the oriontes."

You have given us several dates for the departure and also for Charles birth (Oct 11th & Oct 18th 1911)

I have just used a pregnancy calculator and got this......

First date of Pregnancy 10th Jan 2009 for a delivery date of 12th Oct 2009, so assuming the any of the departure times for Sarah, she was either in Aus a very long time before she got pregnant or she was here and left JUST pregnant....

I don't think Walter would have had time to get Sarah pregnant in Aus and be able to get back for the 1911 census as living with a lady as his wife?

I do still wonder if Sarah merely used Walter's name as she was indeed formally married to him and being a single pregnant female she's used it as cover?

Have you tried to search for a divorce?

....still throwing ideas in!

Tracey x

Gins

Gins Report 14 Dec 2009 07:46

Colin

In answer to your last post;

This 'Walden' is a joiner........

There was no particular reason I used 'lower' case, except that I was being lazy!

I would have thought that a 'Joiner' was a more modern day term for 'Carpenter' 'Chippy'....etc etc. Older descriptions of such a trade were often referred to as 'Journeyman'

You're thinking toooooo much!!! And, having read this thread over and over, I get the impression that every/any Walter Walden you come across is 'your' Walter!

Ginny
x



PS Where is that certificate? Yes I have been keeping an eye on your thread but have 'butted out' until there is some 'proof' of all the hard work people have been doing

Colin, just to add.

If Tracey and Lindsey can’t find you the answers then you're well and truly 'goosed' as they are top notch researchers...you're very lucky they are so persistent!

Gins

Gins Report 14 Dec 2009 08:39

Dont know if this is significant but it adds to Tracey's ER post on page 9

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden <<Coachbuilder
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1903
State: Victoria
District: Echuca
Subdistrict: Pyramid Hill


Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden <<<<Coachbuilder
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1924
State: Victoria
District: Flinders
Subdistrict: Dandenong
Wife; Sara Ann


Has this been posted, I cant see it?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Walter L Walden
Name: Walter L Walden
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 454

I presume it's Walter senior? Walters father


And this...Walter jnr? The above Walters son

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Death Registration Month/Year: 1955
Age at death (estimated): 72
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 631



If I'm confusing things please tell me and I'l delete!

x

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 09:19

Hi Ginny, Its nice to have you back close to the end of this thread. I suggested that keeping your information onfile might be helpful and sure enough it has now become very important. I will add a time line of Walters assumed movements very soon which will help crystallise where we have got to in this the final stage but I am a little confused about the arrival date for the Osterly in london.I think you mentioned April. On other papers I have that as the departure date ex Brisbane. Could you confirm the dates for me. In relation to the electoral rolls all references relate to Victoria and they are not relevant to us. He was shown in the 1916 roll in the Perth electorate which meant enrolment any time from 1913 on.The importance of the Osterley is that a walter walden joined the ship in fremantle and there were not too many waldens in western australia where all of this action is centered, on its trip to Tilbury. That Walter got off at Plymouth. The date of return is important. Your explanation of the term "joiner" is a pain in the posterior to me as everything else about him fits. It would have been icing on the cake However I have one consolation and that is he has not been entirely truthful about similar matters in the past. Lindsey summed him up well by saying he was like Walter Mitty. As to the qualities of the researchers helping me I agree totally with your comments.
By the way no one wants to see that marriage cert. more than me -it has to arrive soon....colin

Gins

Gins Report 14 Dec 2009 09:55

Colin

Im not sure what you want further from this record as this is all the info it gives and the additional info is the occupation of joiner

It says on the record that 'Walden' embarked at Fremantle and disembarked at Plymouth. Looks like it docked in Tilbury, Essex (London) Maybe someone else could have a look, I could be reading it wrong

Anyhow the info is copied and pasted from the transcription coming up on Ancestry as detailed below. It doesnt give the date it left Brisbane. I have checked the record and the date is correct

What other record are you comparing it to?


UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
about Mr Walden
Name: Mr Walden
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 2 Apr 1910
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Brisbane, Sydney, Hobart, Melbourne, Adelaide, Fremantle, Colombo, Port Said, Naples, Marseilles and Gibraltar
Ship Name: Osterley
Search Ship Database: View the 'Osterley' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 128287

Ginny
x

PS; And the deaths posted for Walter Sr and Walter Jnr? As above

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 14 Dec 2009 11:00

SS Osterley, c.1910
SS Osterley sailed regularly from London to Sydney in 45 days, with 282 first, 130 second and 688 ... Material: Photograph of staircase, SS Osterley, c1910 ...

Dont know how long it would take from Brisbane to Fremantle ?10 days ?

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 11:29

Hi Tracey I'll try and remove some confusion'
Sarah arrived in fremantle early to mid Jan 1911.This was explained in an earlier thread immediately following the Oriontes comment.
My father Charles birth date is 18th oct 1911. Using your pregnancy test the first date should be 16th Jan 1911,fits nicely. Now we have to use some imagination and I appreciate that is what researchers dislike. But I do not know any other way of finding the truth. Walter may have stowed away. If this was the case he would have left the ship to go with Sarah. We will come back to this scenario later. The second and more feasible proposition is he was a crew member. Ginny may be able to tell me how to check this.In the latter scenario he would have said goodbye to Sarah and continued on the round trip back to England which would place him back there before the April census.If he stowed away he would still have to find a way back to england if and I say again if the Mr and Mrs Walden of Hackfield place is the Walter and Alice referred to in Walters army papers.
Bear in mind that those papers declared she was staying with the family at chelmesford st. As someone remarked before there are a lot of Waldens in london.
The othe questions yes I have searched for a divorce for both parties here and in England - no luck. And no I did not look at army marriages because the entry stating their married is before walts enlistment.
I hope it clarifies some of your concerns.
..............colin

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 12:32

Ginny - No need to refer to any one else. I dug up a record of the ships log which I downloaded from ancestry or fmp can't remember which it was some time ago. I revisited the heading which is confusing It stated the arrival date was 1st April and immediately alongside it said Whence arrived Brisbane, Further along the page almost totally unrelated it talks of Port of Arrival Tilbury.I had forgotten that whence arrived is past tense In a nutshell you are right and I am not concerned with the one day difference in arrival.I have also found that the crew are named in the start of the log information so I will be able to chase that information.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the reference to Walt senior and junior deaths.Please let me know if the message is intended for me.

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 12:50

Hi Lindsey = This one may have taken 10 days as they not only stopped at all major coastal ports they crossed over Bass strait to dock in Hobart Tasmania as well. With fewer ports they would do Sydney -Fremantle in about 7 days.

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 13:10

Tracey
I realised that I omitted to answer the question about where and when sarah left walter and who then became involved. My subconscious must have told me to avoid the question because its just too hard to answer at this time.Its becoming apparent that the severance MAY have been at the time of the trip to Australia. Lindsey has suggested a way of checking this which I am pursuing So at this time I don't know.
Who may have entered Walters life? Obviously Mrs Alice F Walden nee Batten/Batton? Time will tell.
Thats enough for today except to say its nice to have one of the early responders contributing again as we reach the end of our journey. Bye for now.............colin

Gins

Gins Report 14 Dec 2009 14:08


You said

I'm sorry but I don't understand the reference to Walt senior and junior deaths.Please let me know if the message is intended for me.


Have I got the wrong end of the stick or have you found Walters death?

I dont know what you mean regarding is the message intended for you? You are researching Walter Walden arent you?

x

Colin

Colin Report 14 Dec 2009 22:45

Sorry about that ginny it was late last night when I was trying to wrap up the hectic days postings and I didnt make the link to your post giving the death notice information. Lindsey had only recently suggested the date for Walt the junior which you have confirmed and Walt the senior was already known. However its good that the dates are posted so those with an interest can follow the story with a bit more understanding.
My main concern now is to focus on where Walter was during the period Jan 1911 to Jan 1914.
I am attempting to put a chronological time line down for that period which will attempt to answer the vexed question about whether the birth entry for Chas Wm Walden with Walter levi Walden as his dad is the truth or a fabrication.
At this time it looks like many years of searching will be in vain but to be more upbeat I must stay open to all possibilities but not take anything for granted. bye for now.

Gins

Gins Report 15 Dec 2009 07:39

Colin

I cant see a birth posted on here for Walter Jr, I may have missed it. Has anyone found a birth record for him?

Ginny
x

Has the marriage cert arrived???