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uk arrivals -the last thread

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Gins

Gins Report 15 Dec 2009 07:46

Hang on a minute. This could be way left field but.............

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Walker Walden Strong <<<<<<<<This says 'Walter' on the record
Name: Walker Walden Strong
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 29 Jun 1884
Father's Name: Walter Strong
Mother's Name: Ellen Strong
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
County: Middlesex
Born; 15th Nov 1883
Address; 61 Bayonne Villas

Also christened on the same day and living at the same adderss is;

Walter James Kirby Born; 11th May 1884
Parents; Edward (carpenter) and Mary Ann Kirby

Do these people ring any bells? Strange that they give the same address



From reading through this thread, it seems that Ellen and Walter sr married after Walters birth. So could this be his birth with his moms maiden name and his fathers name as the middle name?

The father on here is listed as a 'Bricklayer' Walters mom had the maiden name 'Strong'

If this record is correct and Im not going nuts then this would mean that there may be other records in this name as opposed to Walter Levi Walden

??????????

Ginny
x

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 15 Dec 2009 09:41

now theres a birth to juggle with !

Name: Walter Strong
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 274 (click to see others on pag



, how dare they !I've just noticed my sign has gone ۩ Lindsey

Colin

Colin Report 15 Dec 2009 12:46

Ginny
There are so many different dates on various papers I have seen - most revolve around 1883/4. I can't find an 1885 reference or what I thought was a Mar Q 1886 recordin the BMD. I don't know the correct protocol to follow but If I use the baptism date. Is this OK. The answer to your second question is no not yet despite paypal advising it had been posted about a week ago still no sign of it here. I expect the christmas mail rush is slowing the post. It had better arrive before next monday because my wife and I are heading to Bali for a short Christmas break and I would like to make some closing comments on this thread before we leave.
I need the info on the certificate to do this properly

Colin

Colin Report 15 Dec 2009 13:21

Ginny I don't know where you researchers get this information but it wouldn't surprise me that there was another illegitimate child before Walter Levi Jun.Are you allowed in England to register a child under the mothers surname? Seems weird to me. Whoa I am a bit slow, of course you can hyphenate names of both parents.So Walter jnr. may have an earlier brother also called Walter. But if so why has he not shown up on census and other data Did he die early?
For what its worth heres a little more info from the 1901 census Ellen was working as a Laundress and the family lived at adeney close in fulham
Walt the senior and ellen married in the Sep Q 1886 and then 5 more boys were born in succession. Hope this helps. Do you want access to my tree?

Gins

Gins Report 15 Dec 2009 15:29

For what it’s worth Colin, if this was my family research I would say with almost certainty that the birth of Walter Walden Strong IS the Walter that is under investigation here.

Of course I couldn’t add this info to my tree without obtaining the birth certificate (Lindsey posted the GRO details under the baptism) but I'd bet a month’s wages it's him

So, take £7 out of your 'Bali' spending money and send for the certificate!

I can’t see any other births that match with the info that's posted here and you don’t have a birth certificate for Walter....conclusion, it's a very good bet it's him.

The records that are available online are not accurate, so if a census/ships record etc states an age, it's not forced to be correct. So the only proof you will find is within a certificate.

Also how do you know that Ellen and Walter sr had many children and possibly another 'Walter', where is the evidence to suggest this?

And yes, a mother can register the birth of her child in her name here in England.

Lastly, baptism dates are not the date of birth. Many children were baptised months or even years after birth so you can’t place an age on a person using this resource. Luckily on the baptism I posted, the vicar had the foresight to add the actual birth date........he must have seen you coming!

Ginny
x

Gins

Gins Report 15 Dec 2009 16:05

You say that on this census Ellen is a 'laundress'...where does it say that, I can’t see it?

Also back to my earlier post of the baptism. Father Walter; a bricklayer. And well would you believe it, the Walter on this census is, wait for it..wait... ta daa....

1901 England Census
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Fulham, London, England

Civil parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alban
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: North West Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Household Members: Name Age
Walter Walden 40 <<<Bricklayers labourer
Ellen Walden 38 <<<no occupation listed
Bertie Walden 6
James Walden 3
Alfred Walden 2

They're living at '17 Chelmsford St' not 'adeney close' as you state. Where are you getting your information?


Edit;

Just done some digging and you must mean the 1891 census not the 1901


Colin

Colin Report 15 Dec 2009 16:56

Your right its 1am here I need some sleep catch up with you later because there is just too much for me to digest right now.
bye

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 15 Dec 2009 18:02

Ok,

Just need to add somethingto this....

Colin, under the rules of the UK births MUST be registered within 6 weeks.... some take a bit longer for various reasons, however i do know it's almost impossible to have a baptism in Oct of 1885 and a birth registration of Mar 1886 ( and i have to add it's not actually Mar but the Mar Q, which is Jan Feb Mar).

You can quite happily have a baptism after a birth but not the other way round!!

So the birth of a Walter Walden you cling so well to is def not him if the baptism is def him!!

Where does Levi come from? It's quite clearly a baptism name.... (not on the birth details but on subsequent ones like marriage and death) We like doing things like that here...!!

So we need to find the name Levi in either family....

Ginny is a very logical person like myself and Lindsey, we all work very very well hand in hand, her hunch is very very good....it has to be said i've done much reading of this thread lately but not lot of looking as i've been busy working.

I think alot of your thoughts are based on other thoughts and theories. You need to go back to facts and go from there....

We currently have no birth for Walter (fact)
We have a baptism that happens before the birth you think is him (fact)
We have tenuous ships lists for Walter (fact)
We have a birth of a child in Aus 18th Oct 1911 (fact)

For Walter to stow that far and not be caught is hard work, and for him to passage back the same way is asking alot!!!

As for the military marriage i asked you about, the reason i asked was he's clearly 26 in 1911 and therefore could have had 8 years under his belt in the navy prior to then (remembering the ships tattoos)

He enlists twice in the army, so he's clearly escaping something?? Maybe he's a life long F*up who just couldn't settle??

Remembering he contracted VD somewhere, thats not something a happily married settled man gets??

Have we looked for further children after 1911/16 inc deaths? They would possibly have the Batten mmn??

Have you tried to apply for the Syphilis register to see when he was on it until?? (i don't know the protocol for such a list)

There are still sooooo many avenues you have not traversed down instead concentrating on trying to prove doubtful ideas and baseless arguements.

If i were you i'd go completely back to the drawing board and see what FACTS you have, forget the notions and go with facts.

We need certs, birth death marriage....

Tracey x

WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 15 Dec 2009 18:48

hmmm

Name: Bertie Levi Walden
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 29 Nov 1893
Father's Name: Walter Levi Walden
Mother's Name: Ellen Walden
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Lambeth
County: Middlesex

and

Name: Frederick James Walden
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 18 Mar 1888
Father's Name: Walter Walden
Mother's Name: Ellen Walden
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
County: Middlesex

Is Bertie ....Walter??


Tracey x

Gins

Gins Report 15 Dec 2009 19:01

Hey Mrs T

Sorry hun I dont know what you mean with the Walter/Bertie connection?

Ginny
x

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 15 Dec 2009 22:27

no Bertie is a separate entity, somewhere back on thread one or two,now lost ,
of course the 1911 census should give children dead and alive.
bertie doesnt seem to be on the later census


1891 England Census about Walter Waldon
Name: Walter Waldon
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Fulham, London, England
Civil parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Waldon 24
Ellen Waldon 24
Walter Waldon 7
George Waldon 5

Colin

Colin Report 16 Dec 2009 04:05

Hi team Well I think I am now making sense of the recent discussions. I have pulled together Walt the sen and Ellens family so that we can make up our mind about Walt the Junior.
It might be the kiss of death Ginny but I am now firmly in your court. Although this is not as good as confirmation by certificates it does stand the test of corroboration through interlocking data. Hey doesn't that sound pretty good. In any case make up your mind, which is a redundant thing to say because you all will anyway. Here it is;.

1883 Walter walden Strong born 15th nov 1883 Dec Q 1a- 274
1885 George philip Walden born 29 0ct. 1885 Dec Q 1a -301
1888 Frederick james Walden born Mar Q 1a -264
1893 Bertie Levi Walden born DecQ 1a -310
1896 William james Walden born Jun Q 1a -355
1899 Alfred Walden born Jun Q 1a -255

A cross reference to the army enlistment for Walter levi shown as that name has the birth date of Walter Strong.There are BMD references for all children and they sort of correlate to census information. Where it doesn't the reason is pretty plain like using james walden as the recognised family name when the records show it is Wm james etc.
Does this help to convince others that there is only the one Walter and whether you like it or not he has been known on official records like his marriage certificate and the birth of his son Chas as Walter levi.We now have what I consider to be his accurate dob and if nothing else that is another step forward. Thanks to you all because you continue to make these discoveries which astound me. Can anyone tell me what name Walt jnr or Walter Strong would officially be known as?

PS Tracey Bertie couldn't be Walter unless they allowed him to marry at age 11. Colin

Gins

Gins Report 16 Dec 2009 10:51

Colin

You asked;

Can anyone tell me what name Walt jnr or Walter Strong would officially be known as?



Oh if only we knew! No really his 'official' name would be that on the baptism record I posted (If that’s him....you need the certificate) but he could have called himself anything at all!

Back then there were no checks like we have today, you just got married and gave them the details, end of, no questions asked! You could have called yourself ‘Mickey Mouse’ and no one would ask questions. Oh except Walt (Disney that is) had not created him at that time!

So, are you going to send for the birth certificate....I can’t wait! It might also be useful to buy the death certificates of his parents as this might place him if he was the informant.

And....marriage certificates of his children might give you more information such as his name and if he is still alive. And, you never know he might have been a witness!

So, if you take my advice, you can cancel 'Bali' and spend your holiday cash on gathering hard factual data!

Ginny
x


WayneTracey

WayneTracey Report 16 Dec 2009 13:03

Hmmm....

This might hurt us,

Marriages Jun 1900
Elphinstone Edith Caroline Fulham 1a 445
Johnson Emily Caroline Fulham 1a 445
Skinner Charles Archibald Fulham 1a 445
>>>Strong Walter Wallace Fulham 1a 445

Tracey x

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 16 Dec 2009 13:17

Name: Walter Wallace Strong stockbrokers clerk
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Spouse Name: Edith Caroline Elphinstone
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 21 Jun 1900
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Father Name: Herbert Strong office clerk
Spouse Father Name: Alexander Elphinstone resteranteur?

Gins

Gins Report 16 Dec 2009 14:56

You can stop that Tracey!

x

Colin

Colin Report 16 Dec 2009 23:32

To all who are intererested in the Walden-Cox s Marriage certificate It still has not arrived and it is because of the "English disease" which goes back to the tolpuddle martyrs. Australia Post is and has been on a go slow campaign for better wages and conditions and I am merely one of many who are affected because of their campaign. Never mind all will be revealed when it finally comes.
To Ginny, Some times I don't know how to take your comments as I suspect you are like most of the others that have been helping me over the course of this quest, got a little bit of devilment in your make-up. Its good because it makes for interesting reading for the observers of this strand. I will now tell you it has been many many years since I have been able to afford a trip like this which my wife and I are going to enjoy so scrapping it and buying all of the certificates you suggest is out of the question. However on my return I may sell the car and the house which will rid us of our remaining family at home to allow me to put a deposit on all of those certificates and pay them off on the never never plan. OK I will get some of the important ones on my return.Now back to the important work. The info about Mrs Walden in the 1911 census and the link to Alice Batten Batton? seems to me to be the best avenue for finding a little more. Lindsey may have been misled about the address as Walter and Mrs Walden were at a different address to the family during that census. A little later, in the 1914 year during his army enlistment period he seems to have returned to the family home with Alice. There is something funny about this relationship and why can"t we locate Alice Mrs Walden? now.
OK thats enough thinking for now - its time to go for a swim here. Eat your heart out folks.
...............colin

 Lindsey*

Lindsey* Report 17 Dec 2009 00:17

Der ?
Walter was at sea when the 1911 census was taken !

I miss nothing!

The 1911 says there were 6 walden children born ! died, possibly Bertie and they were married 27 years.

Swim. it's -4 here and I'm full of a cold, on my second box of tissues, the snow is falling and I'm not happy, at all !

Colin

Colin Report 17 Dec 2009 04:28

Sorry to hear your choked up with the flue Take an aspirin or two and stay in bed instead of answering these questions so early in your morning.By the way its a pleasant 28 degrees here and the water temperature is great for swimming not just wetting your feet.
I am again intrigued by your answer and I accept the fact that little if anything does get past you.Why do you say he is at sea? Do you know something that you have been holding back on or are you confusing the arrival date of the Osterley which berthed in Tilbury 1st or 2nd April 1910. Its a bit cheeky of me to ask "do you have any hard evidence of him being at sea". The pupil is learning from the master.
For what its worth I think he is associated with shipping in some way but unfortunately nothing yet presents as evidence to support the supposition. Hope you get well soon Bye for now.

Gins

Gins Report 17 Dec 2009 08:33

You said;

To Ginny, Some times I don't know how to take your comments as I suspect you are like most of the others that have been helping me over the course of this quest, got a little bit of devilment in your make-up. Its good because it makes for interesting reading for the observers of this strand


Well Colin, my mom always said that a women needs to keep an 'air' of mystery about her. So you'll never know lol

So the 'Bali' holiday, home with a pool and a car are all just ' fur coat and no knickers'!!! Theres a lot of them where I live, fancy cars and clothes and 'nowt in fridge' tee hee

As for entertaining 'observers' of this thread...bovered!

When did you send for the certificate, it's taking yonks?

Ginny
x