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I seem to be perpetually confused and would be very grateful if one of you with obviously much more experience than I could suggest how I might resolve this:

I have found some inconsistency in the official documents I pulled from Scotland's People in regard to my Great Grandmother, Ann Kerr (14 Nov 1868 to 24 Jul 1943). It seems that the name Vickers had great significance to her and to her husband Thomas Kerr (16 Feb 1865 to 24 Dec 1929) because after naming their first child John (presumably after Thomas’s father John Kerr – 12 Jan 1830 to 7 Sep 1879) they named their other three children Alexander Vickers Kerr, Vickers Kerr and Annie Vickers Kerr. The relevant information from the official documents is as follows:

Birth - Registered as Ann Vickers, Illegitimate, mother Ann Vickers, born 14 Nov 1868 in Cockpen, Midlothian.

Marriage - Shows that Thomas Kerr, Bachelor aged 24 and Annie Sneddon, Widow aged 20, were married on 15 Mar 1889 in the Cockpen Manse, Midlothian. Ann’s parents are listed as Archibald Vickers, Coal Miner – deceased and Ann Vickers m.s. Sneddon – deceased. No mention of Ann having been born Vickers. (I have also not found this Sneddon/Vickers marriage between 1870 and 1888).

Death - Death registered as Ann Kerr at 74 years, widow of Thomas Kerr, coal miner on 24 Jul 1943 at Burnbank, Hamilton. Shows that she was born Ann Vickers but afterwards married to John Sneddon, an engineer – deceased.

John Kerr Birth - Born 12 Jun 1889 in Cockpen, Midlothian. Mother shown as Annie Kerr, formally Sneddon m.s. Vickers.

Alexander Vickers Kerr Birth - Born 24 Nov 1890 in Lasswade, Midlothian. Mother shown as Ann Kerr, m.s. Vickers.

Vickers Kerr Birth - Born 29 Dec 1895 in Cockpen, Midlothian. Mother Annie Kerr m.s. Vickers.

Annie Vickers Kerr Birth - Born 29 Oct 1899 in Cockpen, Midlothian. Mother Annie Kerr m.s. Vickers.


Alex

Alex

marriage?

3 1879 SNEDDON JOHN VICKERS ANN COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/00 0016 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

Jackie

this could be John's death

4 1883 SNEDDON JOHN M 44 COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/00 0015 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

SP images

death 23 Mar 1883 in Cockpen hard to read but could be Durham? Bank Cottages

John Sneddon engineer
married to Ann Vickers
parents noted and Richard Sneddon colliery manager dec and Janet Sneddon m/s Robertson dec

death was registered by Ann

marriage
5 Oct 1879

John Sneddon age 38 residing Cockpen parents Richard Sneddon colliery manager dec and Janet Sneddon m/s Robertson

Ann Vickers 32 residing Cockpen parents Alexander Vickers coal miner and Ann Vickers m/s Flockhart dec

Alex

Not sure if you have the correct Ann dob 1868 as if the one who married John Sneddon is the correct one then she would have only been 11 in 1879 . Have checked the second marriage and the address given for both Ann and new hubby is the one where her first husband died. I think that there is an error with mothers maiden name though as they have Sneddon noted and first marriage notes Flockhart.

Jackie

Thanks Jaqueline. I thought I replied but my message seems to have disappeared! I think I must be mixing different people up and I will have to take a step back from it all. When this marriage happened (12? Oct 1879) my g-grandmother was (I believe) a month short of 11 - not 32 as shown on the marriage record. I seem to have a mixture of Ann Vickers ms Sneddon and Ann Sneddon ms Vickers and a couple of different fathers - Archibald and Alexander Vickers. I might look to see if I have a generation missing!

Regards,
Alex

Thanks for all the work you have done on this, Jackie.

The reply I sent was only to your first 3 messages. I have found that if I don't preview a reply before I post it, it doesn't work.

While I am interested in all of this, if I take it one step at a time then I should be sorting out my closest ancestors first. Alexander Vickers Kerr, born in Lasswade on 24 Nov 1890 to Thomas Kerr and his wife Ann (I think nee Vickers) is my grandfather. I guess that's why I included all the information I have above - and that Ann is the one I probably need to concentrate on first (if it makes sense to do that).

Regards,
Alex

Alex

going out to do some dreaded xmas shopping but will have a look at some census for you when I get back if you do not already have them let me know what years and I will see what I can find

Jackie

Jackie,

I have this Kerr family in the 1901 census but I have been unable to find them in the 1891 one (I spent some more time on this this morning without success). In '91 it should be Thomas 26, Ann (or Anne, Annie etc) 22, John 1 and Alexander 4 Mo. I have Thomas with his parents in 1871 and I think I found the family with no image in 1881 (father John had died in 1879) but I haven't done so well with Ann!

Alex

Alex

have had a look on Sp and using all family members to track them in census have so far failed to find them.

The marriage date for John and Ann is really hard to read it could be 5th or 12th it was registered on the 13th so no clues there.

I have sent you a pm but if you need help understanding it give me a shout

Jackie

Alex

Have found this Alexander coal miner with grandchild Alexander wife Ann and a second grandchild Robert but none of their own children are there so not sure if we can tie it to your Alexander
1 1871 VICKERS ALEXANDER M 52 STOBHILL /MIDLOTHIAN 698/0B 003/0B 005 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
2 1871 VICKERS ALEXANDER M 6 STOBHILL /MIDLOTHIAN 698/0B 003/0B 005 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

Jackie,

I have found a 1881 census record for John (head) and Annie Sneddon that, I think, makes things a little clearer. It is:
1 1881 SNEDDON JOHN M 38 COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/00 002/00 039 VIEW (PAID) ORDER

It has John at 38, Annie at 33, a daughter Jane Snedden 5 and 3 step-children Annie Vicars 12, John Vicars 10 and Helen Vicars 8. The spelling of Vicars rather than Vickers threw me - but I suppose I should have been looking for that! I will look closer at this tomorrow but in the mean time, thanks again for all your help!

Alex

I wonder if the baby in 1868 could have belonged to your Ann who married 1879. I will check the images on SP to see if the signatures are similar as this is how I managed to trace my mums birth family- saw a signature that matched the one on mums birth cert but discounted it as being a coincidence until I actually found out that my mum had been mislead about her mums age at the time of her birth and that she had 3 older siblings.

Meantime my youngest is nagging to get the Christmas tree up so of to spend a few hours doing that

Jackie

Alex

Had a look at the signatures but one is signed Vickers and the other Vicker so cannot really tell anything from this. The census in 1881 shows her as being born in Newbattle and 33 so had a look at the parish records but nothing on there either did find this though obv a sister
1 23/06/1844 VICKARS ELISABETH ALEXANDER VICKARS/ANN FLOCKHART FR761 F COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/ 0030 0192 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

Now I am leaning towards the birth in 1868 being Ann's illegitamate daughter as the step children have her maiden name.


possible for John

1 1871 VICKERS JOHN M DALKEITH /MIDLOTHIAN 683/00 0100 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

John Vickers dob 11 May 1871 mother Ann Vickers looks like Brick? worker but she has not signed the register it has her mark x so she obv couldn't write so bang goes my theory of her being the mother of the baby in 1868 as that register was signed. Have not managed to trace the other two births though

Jackie

Thanks again Jackie.

Yes Elisabeth seems like a sister. I have also found the family (Alexander/Ann Vickers) in the 1851 census and that adds another sister Helen. Looking at what I have now with your help, it seems that the story is very consisent with the exception of the Thomas Kerr Ann Sneddon/Vickers marriage on 14 Mar 1889. This shows that Ann's father was Archibald Vickers (her father is not named anywhere else) her mother was Ann Vickers m.s Sneddon rather that the other way round and that she herself was a 20 yo widow called Ann Sneddon with no mention of her ever having been called Vickers (other than the name of her father). I am tempted to assume that this document is riddled with errors and that everything else I have found is correct - but I suppose that is not something a competent genealogist would contemplate?

Alex

Helens Marriage took place in Parish of Cockpen on 2 July 1858

she is noted as being 21 parents William Vickers miner dec and Jean Flockhart

groom George Forbes age 21 miner parents John Forbes miner and Beatrice Paterson

witnesses are William Alexander and Elizabeth Young


The don't make it easy to search by changing their names on every document do they?

Hi Scozzie,

It would be better for you to pm Alex as it's unlikely he is looking for replies after three years.

If he still has the same email address he will be notified.


:-D Cx.

He may not be a member any more Scozzie. :-(

Have you tried contacting the other members who have Robert in their tree??


Cx :-D

You have 58 Robert Beveridges in your tree??????


Looking at the R.B's listed on GR, you have about 17 with your name against them and it seems as though you may have doubled a couple of them.

There are still quite a few contacts on here who have some of your Roberts in their trees though....

:-) Cx

No of course not.......Scozzie.....it just seems a heck of a lot of family with the same name. You must get in quite a tizz with them all.




I've got about nine with the same name in a couple of families and that's bad enough...... :-S



I was really just wondering if you had contacted the other members on here who have your family in their trees........


Cx :-D