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Haydock is only about 3miles out of St Helens and abt half way between Ashton in Makerfield & Newton in Makerfield. Possibly more importantly within 3 miles are Billinge, Parr & Sutton.

However this Sarah says she is age 19 on marriage so would have needed parental consent. Ellen (1839) sister Sarah was born 1848/49 ie would have been over 21. This makes me think not the same one as it does not seem probable that age would be declared under 21 if not - other way round yes.

incidentally Stevie

"Here's the same family in the 1861 census. Thomas, Robert & Sarah are probably Ellens brothers & sister;"

by that I assume you mean Ellen b 1839 - mother of the rest - something that could be checked fairly easily next time i look at parish records

What do you think of this one Lancashire Ann as I am not very familiar with the area
This is LK again.


Marriage: 14 Oct 1872 St James, Haydock, Lancashire, England
John Pimblett - 18 Collier Bachelor of Haydock
Sarah Taylor - 19 Spinster of Haydock
Groom's Father: Robert Pimblett, Collier
Bride's Father: Thomas Taylor, Collier
Witness: John Blackey; Mary Harrison
Married by Banns by: W H Nassan Brennan - Curate
Register: Marriages 1867 - 1892, Page 50, Entry 100
Source: LDS Film 1885723

1891 census - household transcription
Person: TAYLOR, Robert
Address: 41, Argyle Street, Hindley

TAYLOR, Robert Head Married M 48 1843 Coal Miner
Billinge
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Charlott Wife Married F 44 1847
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Robert J Son Single M 15 1876 Drawer In Coal Mine
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, John W Son Single M 9 1882 Scholar
Hindley
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Jane Daughter Single F 7 1884 Scholar
Hindley
Lancashire

1871 census - household transcription
Person: TAYLOR, Robert
Address: Hollin Hey, Ashton In Makerfield

TAYLOR, Robert Head M 27 1844 Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Charlotte Wife F 24 1847 Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Ann Daughter F 5 1866 Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Esther Daughter F 3 1868 Lancashire VIEW
ASHALL, Jane Lodger F 13 1858 Lancashire

strong possibility this is Ellen 1841 s brother Robert

1881 census - household transcription
Person: TAYLOR, Robert
Address: 61, George St, Hindley
TAYLOR, Robert Head Married M 37 1844 Coal Miner
Billinge
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Charlotte Wife Married F 34 1847
Hindley
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Eliza Ann Daughter Single F 15 1866 Cotton Mill Operative
Hindley
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Esther Daughter Single F 12 1869 Scholar
Hindley
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Mary Daughter Single F 6 1875 Scholar
Parr
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Robert Son Single M 3 1878 Scholar
Parr
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Sarah Daughter Single F 1 1880
Parr
Lancashire

Seen him in several censuses


I have started to add to Susan's tree so it is becoming easier to see.

Well done LancashireAnn

Thanks. I will come back to this Friday when I have a day off.

And here's the same family in 1851

Name: Ellen Taylor
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Billinge, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Parr
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Islands Brow ?? hard to read.
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability: View image
Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 3b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 41
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Taylor 44.....b1807 Winstinly, Lancashire....Occupation Labourer (this has been dittoed for everyone?)
Elizabeth Taylor 44....b1807 Windle, Lancashire
Mary Taylor 14........ b1837 Billinge, Lancashire
Ellen Taylor 13....... b1838 Billinge, Lancashire
Robert Taylor 6 .......b1845 Billinge, Lancashire
Thos Taylor 10 .......b1841 Billinge, Lancashire
Sarah Taylor 2 ........b1849 Billinge, Lancashire

Here's the same family in the 1861 census. Thomas, Robert & Sarah are probably Ellens brothers & sister;

Name: Ellen Taylor
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Billinge, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Parr
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:..........Island Brow
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage: View image
Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 391
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Taylor 50 Head....b1811 Winstanley, Lancs....occupation Labourer at colliery
Elizabeth Taylor 50 Wife...b1811 Billinge, Lancs
Ellen Taylor 22 Daug .........b1839 Billinge, Lancs , Occupation Labourer at colliery
Thomas Taylor 28 Son.....b1833 Billinge, Lancs, Occupation Labourer at colliery
Robert Taylor 16 Son.......b1845 Billinge, Lancs, Occupation Labourer at colliery
Sarah Taylor 13 Daug...........b1848 Billinge, Lancs, Occupation Labourer at colliery
Elizabeth Taylor 2 Daug ......b1859 Billinge, Lancs,
James Taylor 10 Mo Son .....b1861 Billinge, Lancs,

Note the transcription of Thomas age 28 is incorrect, actually reads 20. I've submitted a correction to ancestry.

That is wonderful Ann. I will add this to her tree soon. Just got in from a day of homevisits up town and I have an early start tomorrow. Smith Taylor is definitely proving a mystery so no wonder Susan was confused.

right - been to records office today but not as successful as hoped

see what you 2 can make of this lot

fiche copy of original marriage reg of William & Ellen definitely fatjher Thomas Smith

found this for 1871 census as Ellen in 1891 says born Ashton which usually means ashton in makerfield rather than Ashton Preston

Ellen Taylor
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Ashton in Makerfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Haydock St James
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Ashton in Makerfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 77
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Taylor 64
Elizabeth Taylor 64
Ellen Taylor 30
Elizabeth Taylor 12
James Taylor 10
Joseph Taylor 7
Mary Taylor 4
Ellen Taylor 1

All the children were grandchildren of Thomas & Elizabeth. looked up the baptisms - all are children of Ellen (obligingly the register says eg for Mary - 4th child 2nd daughter) and all fit & none with father named! Mary is the right age for Mary Taylor who married William Johnson & Elizabeth about right for Elizabeth Boyle. Did not find one for Ellen but on the IGI there is a record of a baptism 15 Jan 1870 for a Eleanor d of Eleanor?? IGI says Parr but could not find at St Peter's unless I missed it.

question - did Mary use her grandfathers name and Ellen make one up.

the other strange one is the Mary Johnson whose 2nd marriage was to Thomas Lee in 1910 (reg office) is described on lancs bmd as Johnson or Smith (not Taylor)

Found a probate index for William Winders wd 1938 of 83 Owen St St Helens Admin granted Liverpool 21 Nov 1938 to Margaret Daniels wife of Samuel Daniels. Looked for will but it was not in the vol I ordered and did not have time to order another.
No will found 1927 for Elizabeth Boyle or 1938 for Ellen Winders

Not sure what to look at next. Any suggestions?

Lancashire Ann that would be wonderful if you could find anything.It is not surprising Susan got got confused.It would also be good to know if my earlier John has siblings so we can join up the dots.


OOO Susan will be surprised.

I am hoping to go to Lancs Ro next week (got the grandchildren for half term so no chance this week).
Will go thru take note of anything which would benefit an original look up or parish reg not on line.

Do you think it wold be worth while looking for any wills? Copies of any proved at Liverpool or Lancaster are held in Preston, or pre 1858 for the ecclesiastical court of Chester. Elizabeth Boyle springs to mind.

I am still monitoring the progress. Are you going to contact whoever about the problem with Thomas Taylor being named Thomas Smith on the certificate. That would close one loophole for certain.

What I have done today is add as much as I can to Susan's tree that we know so far in the hope that someone will pick her up as a match. We are still none the wiser as to William Winders father John.
Nor do we know anymore re Thomas Taylor nor have we found him with all three daughters. A few possibles though,

not surprised you are lost AS. Please join in again. I just started by picking on one bit where I thought a RO lookup might prove useful and worked from there which is perhaps why the later info is confusing

taking that Boyle 1891 census back to 1881 (before 1883 marriage)

Michael BOYLE Head M Male 62 Tipperary, Ireland Labourer
Ann BOYLE Wife M Female 53 St Helens, Lancashire, England Wife
Michael BOYLE Son U Male 22 St Helens, Lancashire, England Miner
James BOYLE Son U Male 14 St Helens, Lancashire, England Bottle Hand
Annie BOYLE Daur U Female 18 St Helens, Lancashire, England Pitt Brow

Source Information:
Dwelling 312 Park Rd
Census Place Parr, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341895
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3738 / 42
Page Number 78

same address but this time with Michael junior

I have a message from Norma


Hi Christine,

Thanks for your e-mail. I am no expert in family history by any means, and have no birth/marriage/death certificates as back up, but I'm fairly confident that William Winders (1813) was my great great grandfather. He married Ann Hill at Rainford Parish Church 9.8.1840. She had a son John Hill (Winders) and they had 2 daughters Ellen and Margaret. They lived at Moor Flat which is now the site of a supermarket in the centre of St Helens. Ann died c1849 and William married Jane Hunter at St Mary the Virgin, Prescot 10.3.1850. William and Jane had 6 children, the 4th of which was my great grandmother Maria (1863-1942). On the 1871 census William & Jane lived at Chancery Lane, Parr, St Helens and there is a burial record for a William Winders (69) at St Peters, Parr for June 1880 which fits in roughly both location and date-wise. There is also a burial record for an Ann Winders (39) at St Helens Parish Church (St Mary) for March 1849 which would fit in with where they were living at the time and would also fit roughly date-wise. As I say I have no certificates to back this up. I can find no burial record for Jane.

Hope this helps and isn't too convoluted!
Norma


This would fit in with Rhond's tree.

Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boyle Michael 26 Prescot 8b 533

Trying to find Taylor /Leather link and was surprised by this


Marriage: 23 Nov 1841 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
John Leather - Above age Tailor Bachelor of Newton in the Willows
Anne Winder - (X), Above age Spinster
Groom's Father: John Leather
Bride's Father: Thomas Winder
Witness: William Winder; Elizabeth Winder, (X)
Married by: J. H. Macguire
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [72], Entry 143
Source: LDS Film 1469036

LK here again
combining info on that grave reference you gave.

Births Mar 1889 (>99%)
Winders Margaret Prescot 8b 757

Margaret Winders Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 19 MAR 1889 St Thomas,Eccleston, , Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: William Winders Family
Mother: Ellen Winders
I028895



1891 census -
Address: 19, Grafton Street, Eccleston, St Helens
WINDERS, William Head Married M 23 1868 Coal Miner
Manchester
Lancashire
WINDERS, Ellen Wife Married F 22 1869
Ashton
Lancashire
WINDERS, Margaret Daughter Single F 2 1889
St Helens
Lancashire

1901 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, Ellen
WINDERS, William Head Married M 30 1871 Coal Miner (Getter)
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, Ellen Wife Married F 30 1871
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, Margaret Daughter Single F 12 1889
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, Jessie Daughter Single F 9 1892
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, William Son Single M 7 1894
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, Herbert Son Single M 2 1899
St Helens
Lancashire
WINDERS, Arnold Son Single M 0 (10W) 1901
St Helens
Lancashire

1911 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, Ellen
Address: 17 Thompson St St Helens
WINDERS, William Head Married M 42 1869 Coal Miner Coalgetter St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Ellen Wife Married
23 years F 41 1870 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Margaret Daughter Single F 22 1889 Charwoman St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Jessie Daughter Single F 19 1892 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, William Son Single M 17 1894 Coal Miner Pony Driver Underground St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Herbert Son M 12 1899 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Harold Son M 10 1901 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Ernest Son M 7 1904 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Elsie Daughter F 5 1906 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Norman Son M 3 1908 St Helens Parish Lancs
WINDERS, Ellen Daughter F 6 1905 St Helens Parish Lancs

Marriages Jun 1911 (>99%)
Daniels Samuel Prescot 8b 1035
Winders Margaret Prescot 8b 1035

Deceased detail
Surname Winders
Forename William
Burial date
19 / 09 / 1938
Location
St Helens Cemetery Register Number 82211
Age 69 Years
Grave reference
STHELCEM / 10 / 202
in the same grave
Boyle Elizabeth 23/03/1927 age 67
Winders Ellen 07/02/1938 age 67
Winders William 19/09/1938
Daniels Samuel 06/05/1947
Daniels Margaret 04/10/1957 age 66
Winders Herbert 06/08/1980 age 81