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This one.....

"If William & Elizabeth Dewhurst married Preston 1836 and stayed in the Preston area there are 8 children (no William) born to a Winder with mmn = Dewhurst in Broughton, Preston"

We do not need a William. We need a John to be born to William Winders and Elizabeth Dewhurst. Is that a possibility???

yes sherlock we have the marriage cert for William and Ellen Taylor.
It records her fathers name as Smith.
I have gone through looking fot Thomas and Ellen and Mary together unsucessfully.

I think Preston is unlikely.
So far all events are recorded as
Parr
Sutton
Ecclestone St Helen's
Possibly Windle
and later into Farnworth and Widnes.

Prescot reg dist

Try looking at a map to get a feel for the area. Most of the industries were mining and chemicals. Offshoots from that would be glass(Pilkingtons) and brickmaking.

I have Birth cert of William Winders born 21st Nov 1893 19 Grafton Street.
Father William Winders coalminer
Mother Ellen Winders formerly Taylor.
Ellen was the informant and this is confirmed by census info.

William c1864 records show his father was John a glass splitter
We cannot find Johnglass splitter with William.

Cant see your Warrington birth.

New resource for you Sherlock

google lancashire opc. It is free and well put together.

I may be having a Eureka moment or I may just be seeing things I have looked at this for so long

Rhondda you have father of William who married Ann Hills as William.

Check 2 marriages below. It looks like he could be John. That would make the connection with my tree.


"William WINDERS was born in 1813 in Sutton, Lancashire, England.
Ann HILL(S) was born in 1811. She died in 1848/9 at the age of 38 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.1 William WINDERS
and Ann HILL(S) were married in Sep 1840 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.2 They appeared in the census in 1841 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England.3 William WINDERS and Ann HILL(S) had the following children:
1.1. John HILL (WINDERS) was born in Sep 1838 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.4 He appeared in the census in
1841. He appeared in the census in 1851 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.5 John died in Dec 1899 at the age of 61 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England."

Marriage: 9 Aug 1840 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
William Winders - (X), Of full age Labourer Bachelor of Windle
Ann Hill - (X), Of full age Spinster of Windle
Groom's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Bride's Father: Peter Hill, Collier
Witness: William Winstanley, (X); Alice Johnson, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bullen
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 80, Entry 160
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Marriage: 16 Nov 1840 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
John Kilshaw - (X), Full age Collier Bachelor of Parr
Ann Winders - (X), Minor Spinster of Sutton
Groom's Father: Edward Kilshaw, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Witness: Joseph Harrison, (X); Lydia Swift, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bullen
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 88, Entry 175
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Both of those marriages happened before 1841 so could both be children of


1841 Address: Moss Nook, Prescot, Sutton
WINDRES, John M 54 Lancashire
WINDRES, Ellen F 53 Lancashire
WINDRES, John M 20 Lancashire
WINDRES, Ellen F 14 Lancashire

also bricklayer.

compare


Marriage: 7 Mar 1866 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Thomas Woodward - Full age Miner Widower of Rainford
Ann Kelsale - (X), Full age Widow of Rainford
Groom's Father: Thomas Woodward, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Witness: John Hobin; Margaret Pigot, (X)
Married by Banns by: Wm A Kempston
Register: Marriages 1849 - 1868, Page 208, Entry 416
Source: LDS Film 1657567

I keep looking at the Leathers but nothing definite yet Ann but hopefully you may see something I dont.

"If William & Elizabeth Dewhurst married Preston 1836 and stayed in the Preston area there are 8 children (no William) born to a Winder with mmn = Dewhurst in Broughton, Preston"

sorry my mistake

the children born Broughton, Preston were Amy 1841, Martha 1843, Ambrose 1844 &46, Rebecca 1848, JOHN 1850, Ellen 1853

so John 1838 does not belong to Elizabeth Dewhurst

I wonder if it is worth looking at the original marriage register for the 1887 marriage of William & Ellen to see if there was a mistake made when copying to BT's, which has then been perpetrated onto the index and copy certificate.

As the exact date is known (see p 8) it might be worth a phone call to the Lancs RO and ask for the original record which they hold. Don't know if they charge as the original register has to be retrieved from the archive room so is not a quick search, unlike the BT's which are freely available. If you can wait a week or so (have the grandchildren this week) I can have a look when I go into Preston.

Also I wonder if we are missing William's baptism if he was born in Manchester (see 1891 census). If he was 19 in 1887 he would have been born 1867/68, before compulsory registration. There is one b 1867 Hulme, Manchester nephew of Samuel Winder on the 1881

John 1838

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1838
WINDERS John
Newton-le-Willows (which is part of Newton in Makerfield reg district Warrington)

re death of Rhodda's Ann Winders in Prescot in 1848 / 49. Presumably no death cert as exact date not known.

Burial: 25 Jan 1848 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Ann Winders -
Age: 19 days
Abode: Parr
Buried by: Edw. Carr
Register: Burials 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 18
Source: LDS Film 1469036

Burial: 28 Mar 1849 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Ann Winders -
Age: 39 years
Abode: St. Helens
Buried by: Thomas Jump
Register: Burials 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 248
Source: LDS Film 1469036

There is no indication from what we know so far that Susan's family left St Helens.

I think from my contacts I have made I ruled out John with Elizabeth Dewhurst but I am not sure they all agree with each other. I have invited them on here to contribute but so far no one has. I will check again.

??????????

"I have Birth cert of William Winders born 21st Nov ********1893 19 Grafton Street.********* "

1891 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, Ellen
Address: *************19, Grafton Street, Eccleston, St Helens********
WINDERS, William Head Married M 23 1868 Coal Miner **MANCHESTER**

WINDERS, Ellen Wife Married F 22 1869 ***ASHTON***

WINDERS, Margaret Daughter Single F 2 1889
St Helens
Lancashire

I wonder if Helen is ElleN?



JOHN WINDER Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: HELEN HARRISON Family
Marriage: 27 NOV 1809 Saint Helens, Lancashire, England

: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

M036661

Ann you are so right.

I am so grateful. If you could do that look up it would be fantastic

I am still looking at other trees. Again I am not sure that an error has been made and copied somewhere.

I think this should be the next one to look at

Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

Other Winders births in Bury


Births Jun 1861 (>99%)
WINDERS Joseph Bury 8c 451
WINDERS Mary Ann Bury 8c 451

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1862 (>99%)
WINDERS Rachel Bury 8c 417

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Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
WINDERS Clara Bury 8c 409

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Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

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Births Sep 1867 (>99%)
Winders Charles Bury 8c 458

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Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
WINDERS Anna Bury 8c 453

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Births Mar 1872 (>99%)
Winders Emma Bury 8c 508

Forget that one

he died

Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

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Deaths Sep 1866 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winders William 0 Bury 8c 284

Rhondda
when you find us
Do you have William's (or John's) second marriage to Jane Hunter?

Norma has this tree too