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Surgeon John Heatley - Please review thread

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 14 May 2011 20:57

Very few possibles on the 1841/51...Frances was John's wife on that one.

Most entries are much later births... have looked at various spellings but no joy

Simon

Simon Report 14 May 2011 21:03

Ok thanks very much

The John I am looking for must have died pre-1837

Not on census or his wife Mary.

His son John died in 1867 in Blackley thats why the John Heatley above interested.

Simon

Simon Report 14 May 2011 22:51

Whellan's Directory 1852.

Does anyone have access to a copy

I found this and would like to know the detail of what it written


John Heatley (undated)
Reference Number: MMC/2/Heatley
Physical Description: 1 file
Biographical History
Heatley is recorded as a surgeon in the Manchester area in the 1850s.

File ( n.d.)
Reference Number: MMC/2/Heatley/1
Physical Description: 2 pieces
Scope and Content
/1 Holograph note entry in Whellan's Directory 1852.
/2 Holograph note MD entry 1856.

Simon

Simon Report 15 May 2011 10:24

There doesn't seem to be any more details just a couple of entries stating John Heatley was a suregon in Manchester in 1852 and 1856.

I think it unlikely that my John Heatley was a surgeon in Jamaica whilst being a surgeon in Manchester.

The Standard (London, England), Friday, September 07, 1855
THE ARMY
MEDICAL OFFICES FOR FOREIGN SERVICE - Orders were received yesterday at the garrison at Chatham for the undernamed medical officers, for embarkation for services at the hospital at Scutari, Crimea, and the colonies: - Acting Assistant Surgeon T L W Wright, left the General Hospital this morning for Portsmouth, to relieve from duty Assistant Surgeon Edward Dolen, who embarks at that port in medical charge of troops for the Crimea. Assistant Surgeon J Coates MD, 26th Regiment, is also to embark for the East and to exchange into another on his arrival there and Assistant Surgeon George C Clery, with the following 7 Acting assistant surgeons, from the General Hospital Fort Pitt, embark for Seutari and the Crimea, viz:- William V Brown, T PMitchell, D Knox, S Herbert, W L Veale, Charles Cooper and G G Leake. Acting Assistant Surgeon J J Kelly and Acting Assistant Surgeon C G Le Febure proceed to Barbadoes: ACTING ASSISTANT SURGEON JOHN HEATLEY and Acting Assistant Surgeon Bell embark for JAMAICA.....etc

Simon

Simon Report 15 May 2011 16:46

For those following my thread and journey of discovery for John Heatley and family today has been a good day.

A cousin of mine has found John Heatley Surgeons gravestone.
She has sent me a photograph and I would love to share it but GR forum does not yet have that functionality to upload photos.

The grave simply states.

The memory of

John Heatley surgeon
who died October 13th 1867, aged 56 years
Also Ellen his wife who died August 16th 1871 aged 57 years

Found in Manchester General Cemetery not Blackley

Well done to Gillian for her perseverance.

Dea

Dea Report 15 May 2011 16:58

I have followed your thread Simon but I am afraid I haven't been of much help.

I am happy to see though that you have found the gravestone of your John Heatley!!

Best of luck with your on-going search!

Dea Xxx

Simon

Simon Report 15 May 2011 21:00

Dea,

People just looking and commenting are a help.

Everyday I or others seem to find fresh information on John Heatley or possible family.

I am fairly confident who John the surgeons parents were but not sure who there parents were or how or if John Heatley Surgeon was related to Captain William Heatley.

I would love someone to read through the thread and give me their opinions.

Thanks

Simon

Simon

Simon Report 16 May 2011 23:26

nudge

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 May 2011 00:53

Just to note that the 1841 census for John Heatley 1776 does say born in Scotland -- the "S" in the "Whether born in Scotland, Ireland or Foreign Parts".

Wife Frances was born in England but not in county. Margaret Dearden was not born in county, and is of independent means.

Oh look, a servant named Greenwood. XP

- edit -- oops, I was running a page behind! I was referring to the 1841 census posted by RR on the previous page.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 May 2011 01:23

I don't suppose there's any chance your John's parents got non-conformist in their middle age and had their kids baptised or re-baptised that way?


Name: John Wesley Heatley
Name: Elizabeth Heatley
-- both on same date
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Christening Date: 01 Jul 1821
Christening Place: Manchester, Lancashire
Father's Name: John Heatley
Mother's Name: Ann Heatley
Record Set: RG4_0973
Collection: England and Wales, Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8)


Baptism date does not always correspond to birthdate.
In my Hill/Monck nuclear family, I have
4 youngest kids, births late 1840s to 1856, baptised on the same date in Cornwall 1857
1 kid (third oldest) baptised in 1872 in London evidently in contemplation of death a few weeks later
1 kid (second oldest) baptised in 1860 in Cornwall
(oldest kid allegedly born Jersey, no idea)

btw, you have now exceeded Ernest Hill/Monck's seven pages of thread ...


rest of post deleted 17 May because I now realize I was looking for parents John and *Ann* when it's John and Mary ...

Simon

Simon Report 17 May 2011 08:58

Hi JC

Thanks for your input.

I do remember that there was a lost 1851 Lancs Census but I have found John Heatley surgeon on the 1841 and 1851 census.

I do think that his parents were probably dead by 1841.

Your records above don't seem to tie in with a John Heatley who was living in London training to be a surgeon in the 1830's

I do think he must have come from a family with money and the Heatleys of Brindle and Preston certainly did have money.

These are the facts

John 1813 lived at Dalton House (1841) in Whittle the house is still there.
He was working there as a Doctor before moving to Manchester.
He had a son called Peter Ralph Jackson Heatley.
His son Henry Heys Heatley was born in Whittle
His eldest son was John Heys Heatley.


I found this marriage, the wife name his Heys same as middle name of my John Heatley's children.

Coincidence or related?

Marriage: 25 May 1809 St Leonard, Walton le Dale, Lancashire, England
John Heatley - Preston Corn Dealer
Mary Heys -
Register: Marriages 1807 - 1809, Page 5, Entry 109
Witnesses
Thomas Gregson, JNo Talbot
Henry Smith Wheelwright, Elizabeth Craven
Source: LDS Film 1656765

If this is right why can't I find birth records for John Heatley@ 1813 and John Heatley@1780

It is there two facts I am missing at the moment or other info that would prove it.

I have no evidence they were born in Manchester and lived in Preston.

Born Preston or area and moved to an expanding Manchester is more likely.


Simon

Simon Report 17 May 2011 09:03

I have also created a 'tree' with the two John's related and then followed John Heatley @1780 back.

His father appears to be James Heatley born in the 1750's.

I have worked out that James Heatley's grandfather is also Captain William Heatleys grandfather. Hugh Heatley 1650 married Alice Gregson.

If I can connect the two Johns then I am confident of tracing the Heatley's back before 1600.

Message me if you would like to see this tree.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 May 2011 15:23

Simon, I ruled *out* the people I was looking at. There was reason to look at them, given the names and possible late baptism and absence of any other candidates, but it weren't them.

-edit-
right, now I see that I had somehow got it into my head that the marriage was John Heatley and *Ann* Heys, when it was

Marriage: 25 May 1809 St Leonard, Walton le Dale, Lancashire, England
John Heatley -
Mary Heys -

... as you keep posting over and over ... so I'm going to delete the John Wesley Heatley post from the thread so as not to confuse.

-------------------------

You know, not everyone had children baptised. I didn't absorb all the tales of churchy goings on earlier in this thread, but if your Heatleys were involved at all, possibly baptisms were put on hold or decided against.


I wouldn't want to be doing this without access to censuses myself, Simon. Looking for patterns can be instructive.

The marriage was in Walton le Dale. Not so far from Samlesbury. I looked that up on the map because of a couple of people I noticed in censuses. (Looking for Heys seemed reasonable too, when looking for the source of John Heatley who married Ann - oops, Mary, I thought.)


1851 in Walton le Dale, reg dist Preston

Mary Bryson 51 - born Mellor
Hugh Heyes 30 - son, born Samlesbury
George Heyes 19 - son, born Walton le Dale
Thomas Heyes 16 - son, born Walton le Dale
Jane Bryson 10 - daughter, born Walton le Dale

Marriages Mar 1840
BRYSON William Preston 21 345
HEYS Mary Preston 21 345

Births Dec 1841 (also one in Sep 1840)
Bryson Jane Preston 21 582


1851 in Walton le Dale

Mary Turner 67
Elizth Turner 37
Mary Turner 35
Margt Turner 31
Jane Turner 24
John Heatley 19 - grandson, born Samlesbury
Jane Turner 13

in 1841 in Walton le Dale

William Turner 60
Mary Turner 50
Elizabeth Turner 25
Mary Turner 20
Margaret Turner 15
George Turner 15
Jane Turner 12
Catherine Heatley 25
John Heatley 10
William Turner 5
Jane Turner 3


All I'm doing is looking at possible Heatley/Heys intersections in the early 1800s.

There are people here at GR with Heys-s and Heyes-s born in Walton and Samlesbury in the 1700s in their trees. It might be worth just some general inquiries as to what they know about the families there.

Oh. I see you have Samlesbury as the source of Hugh 1720 and James 1756 Heatley. You're in touch with the other people with them and other Samlesbury Heatleys?

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 17 May 2011 16:10

from lancs bmd

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BRYSON Jane Walton-le-Dale Preston CLARKSON WLD/2/85
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1841
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BRYSON Jane Walton-le-Dale Preston COUNSIL WLD/3/67 **********
BRYSON Jane Walton-le-Dale Preston HAYES WLD/3/67 ***********

*********** same person as same reg no

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 17 May 2011 16:15

the bryson / Mary marriage was in the name of hayeson the GRO index - so does that mean she born as Counsel (Counsil)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BRYSON * William COUNSEL Mary Walton le Dale, St Leonard Preston 240/1/210
BRYSON * William HEYS Mary Walton le Dale, St Leonard Preston 240/1/210

edit - found that marriage

Marriage: 22 Feb 1840 St Leonard, Walton-le-Dale, Lancashire, England
William Bryson - (X), Tailor Widower of this Chapelry
Mary Heys - (X), Widow of this Chapelry
Witness: John Smith, (X); James Tomlison
Married by Banns by: Robt. Hornby
Register: Marriages 1840 - 1848 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 104, Entry 210
Source: LDS Film 1502383

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 May 2011 16:32

So what we're wondering is whether Mary Heys's first husband was from the same area, and maybe a tad older, and so maybe a sibling of Mary Heys, mother of John Heatley ...

Many maybes, but you never know. I've not infrequently found that one could identify parents and younger siblings of a person, in the 1841 census, in places where the population pool is relatively small and the surname relatively less common, e.g.


Simon -- you can't find a baptism for your John, but I can't find baptisms for these kids (1851 census) either:

Mary (Council Heys) Bryson 51 - born Mellor
Hugh Heyes 30 - son, born Samlesbury
George Heyes 19 - son, born Walton le Dale
Thomas Heyes 16 - son, born Walton le Dale
Jane Bryson 10 - daughter, born Walton le Dale


So it seems to me that records for this area either don't exist or do but aren't to be found on line.

I'm not familiar with lancashirebmd really -- does it have notes about what isn't there?

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 17 May 2011 16:37

how about this one (do I remember a Rigby somewhere or was that another thread/)

Marriage: 1 Nov 1823 St Leonard the Less, Samlesbury, Lancashire, England
John Hayes alias Rigby - Husbandman of This Parish
Mary Counsell - (X), Spinster of This Parish
Witness: William Hayes; John Valentine
Married by Banns by: James Barnes
Notes: [Groom signed John Hayes Rigby]
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 75, Entry 223
Source: LDS Film 1526061

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 May 2011 16:46

That one looks excellent. Now if that John Hayes / Rigby just connects up somehow with Mary Heys Heatley.

;)


for ref, IGI batch numbers -- C=christening, M=marriage

Samlesbury
C020863 1813-1815
M020863 1761-1815
C020864 1816-1845
M020864 1816-1845
C020865 1635-1638 1661-1677
M020865 1635-1638 1661-1760
P020861 1678-1812
(St. Mary Rc) P015191 1753-1837

>> Walton Le Dale
P005681 1609-1808
E005681 M005681 1609-1812


So what that looks like is that Walton Le Dale is essentially not in the IGI for births after 1808 and marriages after 1812.

Searches can be done directly in those batches from here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyLancashire_%28P-Z%29.htm#PageTitle

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 17 May 2011 16:57

looked for hayes / Rigby marriages

unfortunately there are quite a lot of them in Salmesbury / Lleyland/ Euxton area

atavar changed to a view of Salmesbury Hall

Simon

Simon Report 17 May 2011 22:03

Hi JC and Ann

Thanks for your time

I have changed my profile pic to the gravestone of John Heatley Surgeon.

It gives no clues to where he was born but if his father was a Corn Dealer in Preston and census records state Preston I would think Preston.

Mary Heys must have been from Walton Le Dale but Heys and its variations is a common Surname in the area.
Was Mary Heys the daughter of John Heys of Gorse Hall
She would have been born in the late 1770's early 1780's

Gorse Hall, the seat of John Heys, Esq., situated on the road to Blackburn, is a substantial stone structure, with 60 acres of land attached. Whittle-le-Woods is celebrated for its malt, for which there are two large kilns, in constant operation, belonging to Mr. Edward Craven, of Dalton Lodge, and his partners
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=51401

This snippet also refers to Edward Craven of Dalton Lodge this building is across the road from Dalton House where surgeon John Heatley was living in 1841. Cravens were witnesses at both John Heatley's weddings.

If I thought another trip to Preston Records Office would provide the answers I would go, but I dont no where to look, which records to look at on microfiche.

There are so many Heatleys, Heys, Heatley Heys, in a small area of Lancashire.
I am going to spend a little bit of time on Hugh Wallis batches.

I have no connections with the Salmsbury Heatleys on GR I have two trees as I explained above. i created a tree with just the Heatleys starting with Hugh Heatley and moving forward using all the info in the Lancashire Registers.