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James Bird

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 02:42

Hi Janey
This looks right to me re Elizabeth Purnell. I am puzzled now that my Henry wasn't from Birmingham. I am wondering now if these Certs that I have have been obtained correctly for the correct family!

I have found a copy of my grandfather Herbert Bird's MARRIAGE Cert in Calcutta, India and on there it shows Henry Thomas Bird as his father but no occupation shown. On another BIRTH Cert of my grandfather Herbert Bird, it shows Henry Bird (English) and Annie Ellen Williams (Eurasian) as his parents. Occupation of Henry as Sergeant R.A. 12021

On a copy of Henry's Birth Cert. obtained in 1962 it shows James Bird (Jeweller) and Priscilla Adams ( no occupation) as parents to Henry, (no middle name) Bird born 20th July 1852 in St Thomas Birmingham, registered in Birmingham.
I am starting to wonder if my uncle who did this research years ago got it right!
I really appreciate all the work you are doing on this.
Best wishes
Richard

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 19 Apr 2010 02:44

OMG Janey you have another idea! I don't think you're being ignored, I think we're all exhausted.

Wot?

btw, one other possibility did occur to me -- that Henry was a son of James Bird's second wife Ann, who was very young when James and Ann partnered, and took his stepfather's surname and used it when he enrolled and then married. To pursue that possibility further we'd have to know definitely who Ann was.

Are you saying he was son of Ann and not of James? And not of Charlotte?

Back to the drawing board! It is Sunday night here in the normal world, some of us would like to go to sleep.

Drawing board.

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 02:49

Sorry Janey I'm not ignoring you just that so much info to go through! I have posted to you re what you said on page 6.
I am starting to agree that James and Priscilla are are not my ancestors and that my uncle has the wrong Birth Certificate of Henry Bird but I can't help wondering as my father always said the UK connection were jewellers.
Anyway I realise you are an expert on these matters and I am interested to see where this all leads.
Many thanks
Richard

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 02:51

Girls I am completely confused now!!
But please don't give up on me yet!

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 03:02

AuntySherlock I have sent an email to GRO re the cert in question and am waiting a reply.
Many thanks for that tip.
Richard

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 19 Apr 2010 03:19

"I am starting to agree that James and Priscilla are are not my ancestors and that my uncle has the wrong Birth Certificate of Henry Bird but I can't help wondering as my father always said the UK connection were jewellers."

I think you might be trapped in the circle that many people find themselves in. "Petitio principii" is the formal term -- begging the question, or arguing in a circle. Assuming a premise that is in fact the thing that needs to be proved. ;)

Your father may have got the "jewellers" notion from your uncle, or they got it from a common source. It may not be genuine oral family history. It may be that someone lighted on that Birmingham Henry at some point and adopted him into the family and made him part of the oral history, without having a genuine basis for it -- just making the assumption based on birthdate and father's name.

The basic fact is: that Henry, son of James and Priscilla, was in Birmingham in 1871. He did not join the army in Lambeth in 1870, and did not travel to India 6 months later -- or he wouldn't have been in the 1871 census with his parents in Birmingham!

If we are (as we seem to be) absolutely positive that your Henry joined the army in Lambeth in 1870, and travelled to India 6 months later, then your Henry is not Henry son of James and Priscilla in Birmingham.

Because no Henry could have been in two places at once at the time of the 1871 census! ;)

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 04:15

Sounding good Janey, so do we go down the James Bird track where Charlotte Papworth is in the picture, and follow that? The various copies of Certs I have show James (coachman) and Charlotte married in 1841 and in 1853 produce a Thomas Henry Bird born at Colins Cross, Bishop's Stortford, Counties of Herts. and Essex. On the Marriage Cert I have a Joseph Bird (labourer) as Jame's father. James Papworth (labourer) as Charlotte's father.

Thanks again for the great work!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 19 Apr 2010 04:46

Just to be absolutely sure ...

It's possible that the Thomas Henry Bird died in infancy and the death wasn't registered.

I'd find out who 2nd wife Ann was, which would mean starting with the Ann Want certificate I think, to check it was the same James. If not, the earlier James Bird + Ann certificate.

I don't see a Henry Want birth to match well, and she probably was Ann Want, so that seems an unlikely scenario - that he was a step-Bird - but I'd want to rule it out. What went on between 1851 and 1861 is important to know for sure. It's even possible that Ann Want was her married name, she'd been married before marrying James Bird, and she had a child before her first marriage!

Ascertaining the date of Charlotte's death would be good too -- which again would mean starting with the later Charlotte Bird death, hoping it would give info to show it was the right one, and if not, then the earlier one.

You'll have to go back through the last couple of pages to get the James Bird + Ann marriages and Charlotte Bird deaths registration data. ;)

Richard

Richard Report 19 Apr 2010 05:02

Ok thanks will look into that

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 19 Apr 2010 20:32

I have a different suggestion to Janey's. Rather than getting the marriage cert to Ann Want. To find out who the Ann is in 1861, I would get the birth cert of little Mary A Bird, Jun 1860, Lambeth, 1d/367. She might be Ann Want or Anne Williams. Or she might be Ann something else, and might never have actually married James. But it might give us a different surname to look for our Henry.

There is no birth of a Henry Want, but there are plenty of Henry Williamses.

I still prefer the Ann Want marriage (EDIT to that of the marriage to Anne Williams), but it is not impossible that Charlotte died in Lambeth September 1853, after giving birth to Henry in September 1853, and somebody nipped back to Bishop's Stortford to register his birth in October (as was the law).

Oh, Richard, you can answer this. Who registered the birth of your Thomas Henry in October 1853? If it was Charlotte - problem solved!

I would still get the death cert of James Bird, 1866, to see if he was a groom or similar, cos it is his last job that Henry is likely to have remembered being age 13, rather than what he did when he was age 7.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 19 Apr 2010 22:46

I completely agree about the Mary A Bird birth certificate -- I'd forgotten all about her.

That will give Ann's birth surname which will either match or not with one of the marriages. If it doesn't, then either

- Ann and James didn't marry
or
- Ann had been previously married, and finding that marriage would give an idea of what a hypothetical child of hers born c1852 would have been named

Actually, it could be both of the above. ;) Ann could have been still married to someone else and thus not married James.


But I still just hugely doubt that James Bird was ever a groom. ;)

That was Henry's occupation *in the military*. Which he joined at 17ish. It's likely an occupation he acquired in the military, rather than by inheritance.

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 19 Apr 2010 23:45

Glad you agree with my idea Janey, came to me in a moment of inspiration whilst staring at it all!

Oh, Janey, I am still bothered by the ages of Ann. I am happy with her employer adding a few years on in 1851, but not so happy with her chopping 10 years off between 1861 and 1901. Will leave that for now though.

Yep. I imagined James marrying Anne Williams who already had a son Henry, and her dying, and him then marrying Ann Want. Crikey, Unravel that lot! There was time for all that to happen. Problem is we only see what is on the census every 10 years - a lot can happen in between.

Oh, I don't know about James not being a groom. But if he were my direct ancestor (and at this point we are assuming he is) I would want his death cert anyway. He was a coachman in 1851? Surmising....

He was a groom on Henry's first marriage, was he not? I have forgotten now.

JAMES. EDIT, Sorry, Richard. Pulled up on that! Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed.

And in answer your earlier question, yes, your uncle got it wrong. He should have come to us first, but we probably didn't exist then.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 20 Apr 2010 00:12

"JAMES. Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed."

Heh, MM. I think that will be:

RICHARD. Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed.


I don't know about James being a coachman. *Cow* man in 1851.

Hey, maybe the Ann in 1901 was yet another one ...


Lots o' people get it wrong. I found what Nick Barrett didn't a while back (and the poster let us know today, how I'd beaten out Nick on something that really wasn't very danged difficult.)

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 20 Apr 2010 00:40

Wots that with Nick Barrett? Do you know I have never once seen the programme? Didn't even know it existed until about 3 months ago, still not seen it.

Heir Hunters quite interests me.

Richard

Richard Report 20 Apr 2010 02:22

Hi Margaret to answer your question re
Who registered the birth of your Thomas Henry in October 1853? If it was Charlotte - problem solved!

From my copy of the Entry of Birth Cert. it shows as the signature of Registrar as a Rob Percival in 1853 and it says residence of informant (Charlotte Bird mother) Colin's Cross Bishop's Stortford.

I have also found on a cert that I just received that Charlotte's mother was a Charlotte Matlock. The marriage Cert of James and Charlotte show a Robert Sisman and Charlotte Matlock as witnesses.

Richard

Richard Report 20 Apr 2010 05:04

Margaret and Janey I have ordered the Birth and Death Certs for Mary Ann Bird and James Bird, so lets see what we can get from those. I guess they will take a week or so? Can one order these things and get it sent on an email attachment?

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 20 Apr 2010 12:54

Richard said earlier that James was a coachman on marriage to Charlotte - but I now notice he has also said he was a labourer.

I assume that birth cert of Thomas Henry DOES have the mother's maiden name of Papworth, Richard? And what is the occupation of his father?

You now tell us:

"I have also found on a cert that I just received that Charlotte's mother was a Charlotte Matlock. The marriage Cert of James and Charlotte show a Robert Sisman and Charlotte Matlock as witnesses".

What cert is this?

The only baptism I can see of Charlotte (Bird) is this one with mother Elizabeth:

CHARLOTTE PAPWORTH Pedigree
Female
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 21 JAN 1817 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JAMES PAPWORTH Family
Mother: ELIZABETH WILKINSON

I can't find a Charlotte Matlock in 1841, only a Charlotte Medlock.

No, they won't send certificates as an email attachment, they'll come by snail mail and at the moment they are taking a couple of weeks.

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 21 Apr 2010 15:31

Hi Richard,

I'll think some more about EDIT your contact (sorry) and her James/Charlotte, but they don't sound quite right. All the same, it would be worth asking her for access to her tree and seeing if anything jumps out - but please beware of going down yet another wrong path - you have apparently got evidence that your lot originated in Bishops Stortford, so let's stick with them for now.

So, are you saying the marriage cert of James Bird to Charlotte Papworth gave her mother's name? Most unusual to give a mother's name. Or are you guessing that Charlotte Matlock is her mother, just cos she was a witness? Far more likely to be a cousin or an aunt.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 21 Apr 2010 17:22

If Charlotte Matlock was Charlotte Papworth's mother, she would be Charlotte Papworth herself by the time her daughter was born/married.

You two - can you delete the name of the member with the James Bird in her tree? I don't put my full real name on the boards, and she might not want hers here.


Re the Charlotte Papworth daughter of James Papworth and Elizabeth Wilkinson -- their children in the same batch were

Father: James Papworth, Mother: Elizabeth
Batch Number: C065761

1. SARAH PAPWORTH - Christening: 12 NOV 1823 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
2. CHARLOTTE PAPWORTH - Christening: 21 JAN 1817 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
3. ANNA PAPWORTH - Christening: 11 MAR 1819 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
4. RACHEL PAPWORTH - Christening: 27 NOV 1821 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
5. JAMES PAPWORTH -Christening: 22 JUN 1825 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England


In 1841 there is

Name: Rachel Papworth
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Where born: Huntingdonshire, England

>> Civil parish: Warboys
Hundred: Hurstingstone
County/Island: Huntingdonshire


Warboys is the place of birth given by Charlotte Bird in 1851. There are numerous Papworths in Warboys, although none of those other children's names.

Aha, here's the James household, in St Ives (same reg dist, St Ives), I think:

Jas Papworth 45
Elzh Papworth 25
Jas Papworth 15
Eliz Papworth 10

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 21 Apr 2010 22:35

Janey, I was assuming that Charlotte Papworth's mother had remarried by the time of her daughter's marriage, to a Matlock. But I wanted to know how James knew this was Charlotte's mother.

That sort of detail doesn't appear on a marriage certificate.