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Ah. Second married name. Duh. ;)

But no, it doesn't appear on a cert.

Charlotte may have been a region/era-specific favourite name (like my Tryphoena, part of a pocket of them in Northamptonshire, not otherwise in my family). There are several Charlotte Papworths there around that time, even.


Richard, are you absolutely certain that the 1841 marriage certificate says "coachman" -- and not "cow man"? "Cow Man (ag)" is what the 1841 census says, for James Bird in Elsenham.

I think your James Bird is the one in Much Hadlam, Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, in 1841, ag lab.

"Coachman" is a pretty specific and rather higher status/paying job and it would be surprising to see one be a "cow man" in the next census, I think.

There are Charlottes all over the place, mainly southern, but not so restricted as Tryphenas - my Joseph Dallorzo had a Tryphena or two, Northants, you will remember him well!

Waiting for Richard to tell us how he knows Charlotte Matlock is Charlotte Papworth's mother.

No Charlotte Matlock marriage to a Papworth on IGI (only 2 Charlotte Matlocks in the whole country), all years.

No Charlotte Papworth marrying a Mr Matlock. Anywhere. Anytime.

Maybe she married 3 times? Nothing. I'm not stretching to 4 times.

Hi Margaret I have looked hard at the Charlotte Matlock name and I have come to the conclusion that it is not Charlotte's mother because next to her name is a very faint "X" and next to that says her mark, which looks very much like the words, "her mother". One other thing is that I have found on the Cert is that Charlotte Papworth is a servant and in the "Residence at the time of marriage" column it say St. Johns.

Hi Janey, I have taken that name off, sorry about that.

I am absolutely sure that it says Coachman as the occupation of Thomas Henry's father. It's very clear on the cert copy. One of the few things that IS intelligible!

But that is on the 1853 BIRTH CERT. of Thomas Henry.

Jame's 1841 MARRIAGE CERT. clearly shows Labourer.

Who knows - he might have said "cow man" and the registrar heard "coachman". ;) It's not like he could read it!

Hehehhe, probably was the case!

So Charlotte Matlock may be a relative, a friend, or a stranger off the street, drafted in to witness the marriage. Was the marriage by banns or by licence? Not quite sure why I am asking that, but you never know.

Am off on hols tomorrow. Will have to leave you to it for a while.

Hi Margaret, the Certificate says " Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church". by Banns. R. Haworth.

Have a great holiday Margaret and thanks for all your work for me, I really appreciate it.

Cheers for now
Richard

Still no certs have arrived, guess it;s a bit early yet.

15th May now, any certs arrived Richard?

Hi there, welcome back and I hope you had a great holiday.
Still nothing as yet but I just received a confirmation of order about 3 days ago so here's hoping!!

Hi Margaret James Bird Death Cert says he died at age 47 in Brixton County of Surrey 21/2/1866.
Died at 11 Elm Grove, Brixton Hill
Occupation Groom.
That makes him born in 1819.

Mary Ann, James' daughter born 4/6/1860 at New Park Road Brixton Hill, County of Surrey
Mother is Ann Bird formerly Ann Want.
Occupation of James is shown as Private Coachman.

Hope this is useful for you.
Cheers
Richard (look forward to getting the info from you )

At last!

So let's get this right, in reverse order.

Grandfather Herbert Bird born India to Henry Bird and Annie Ellen Williams. She was Henry's second wife, his first being Elizabeth Purnell of Somerset, who died in India.

Henry Bird was born Thomas Henry in 1853 in Bishops Stortford to James Bird and Charlotte Papworth. James Bird was a coachman/groom. Charlotte's parents were James Papworth and Elizabeth Wilkinson.

Charlotte died Bishops Stortford Sep 1856, James remarried Ann Want in 1858 and in 1861 the family was living in Lambeth (but James was then a gardener - though his lodger was a coachman), which explains why (Thomas) Henry joined the army in London in 1870 and went to India.

James died Feb 1866, a coachman, in Brixton. He was born in 1819, in Littlebury, Essex.

So, no Birmingham Jeweller in that lot.

What are we missing now?

We don't know the parents of James - we need his marriage to Charlotte Papworth for that.

The only "grey area" in this is that Henry was really Thomas Henry. He forgot that on his two marriages, but his son Herbert remembered on his own marriage, but got the names the wrong way round.

All is solved, I think.

Hi Marg, thanks for all that work!

I do think you have the correct story.

So I should order the marriage Cert now for James and Charlotte to get his parents name.

I'll get on to it and hopefully get the ordering process right this time!

Many thanks
Richard

I think you should. And the death of Charlotte Papworth, to see we have guessed right.

Who was the informant on the death of James?

Marg I have the marriage Cert already but not the Death Cert for Charlotte. I'll order the Death Cert now.

The Marriage Cert states Jame's father was a Joseph Bird, labourer and Charlotte's father was James Papworth, labourer as well. Jame's Bird's residence at the time of marriage states Saffron Walden and Charlotte's as St Johns.

Marriage date is 17/10/1841 at the Parish Church All Saints in the County of Huntingdon and registered in Huntingdon

Seems like we are getting to the bones of it now, thanks to you and Janey. It's been a shame I had all that wrong info all these years as I would have loved my Dad to know all this but he has now passed away as have all his siblings.

Anyway on with the search!

Who was the informant on the death of James?

Yes, you have told us of the marriage of James and Charlotte already.

Richard, it is a great shame that you were led up the garden path with the wrong family, but remember that your uncle was dealing with records that were much less accessible than current records, and he was probably doing it entirely alone. We don't know where he got the idea about a jeweller from, and maybe the Bird's of Birmingham were related in some way.

I don't think I, or Janey, would say we have this 100% watertight but our findings seems a lot more likely. Hard to say what would make it watertight. Not helped by (Thomas) Henry going abroad. Perhaps if he'd stayed in England, Ann Bird would have shown up living with him at some point, that would have helped, or even his Papworth grandparents.

It's the closest we can do, and I think it is right, and I wouldn't be one to take the easy way out just to make things fit.

I think you have probably learnt a lot about the process of finding your ancestors - proof, proof and more proof. Take only a little notice of what family members tell you, and research from scratch for yourself.

As an extra bit of research, you could try finding out where everyone is buried and if there are any clues from that. Quite likely in municipal cemeteries. I have some great help from such in the past. It might tie up a few loose ends for you.

Come back when you have more info.

Kind regards

Margaret

Hi Marg
I will go down the path of trying to find the burials sometime, thanks for that tip.

One thing amazes me is how did you get Ann Want (Bird) into the mixture? I looked her up in the 1871 census and she is widowed, laundress with 3 daughters, one of which is Mary Ann Bird. I now have Mary Ann's Birth Cert. showing James as the father and Ann as mother but HOW did you originally find her as a link?

I've ordered Charlotte Papworth's Death Cert, so guess it will be a couple of weeks before I get that.

Thanks again
Richard

I just looked for a marriage about the time of Mary Ann's birth. There were a couple of possibles, but she seemed to fit the best. The purpose of getting that was, of course, to prove that Joseph was a coachman/groom.

Thanks for that Margaret, it fascinates me how all this unravels!!