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Hi Anthony, big stepforward thanks to Astra. His records will make interesting reading

If you search Thomas Clarke 1880 - Handsworth -- as keyword-- you will find him with his family right back to 1881.

In 1911 they appear to be the family at 131 wattville st and previously they lived at 121 so they move up and down Wattville st !!

Just about to check elec roll for any other bits.

bw
vanessa

This is extract from email from Lilian's granddaughter: -

"mom said to me a long time ago that they called her nan ellen kirby clarke and always joked she was the posh
part of the family as she had a double barrelled name. As my nan lilian was born a clarke I thought mom meant that ellen started as a kirby, then married a clarke and the double barrelled bit was just a joke, I had already quieried it with mom as I pointed out if she was a kirby then married a babbington then married a clarke - she couldnt be kirby clarke...however - you have cracked the case! :) she started life
AS ellen kirby clarke! That would be why she is listed as formerly clarke on rosie may's birth certificate because that WAS her maiden name -kirby being her middle name! On lilian clarkes certificate they have listed her as ellen clarke late babbington formerly kirby - they have taken the kirby as her maiden name instead of the clarke, its strange she started as a clarke then ended as a clarke, perhaps she married a cousin or
something or it may just be coincidence, there does seem to have been a lot of clarkes around. The reason I have not picked this up before is because I have been researching the name kirby when I should have been looking at the name clarke, I have her dad down as sampson kirby at the moment but I guess that would probably be wrong now but, I am so chuffed there is daylight at the end of the tunnell I dont care!

I have asked her how Ellen could have started life as a Clarke if her father was a Kirby. She also has Caroline Jones as Ellen's mother, I seem to recollect seeing something on a census about one of the sons being called Thomas Jones Kirby, maybe the mothers had allusions of grandeur.

Hi Anthony, hope you have spotted the fab info on Thomas Clarke Astra found. It may well add to the emerging story.

Glad too that it looks like the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth may well be her.

I seem to recall one of the Ellen ( something ) families i found had a Caroline as Head of the family. Fingers crossed with a bit more digging you will get there.

I am still undecided if Thomas Clarke is now her brother / cousin / husband / lover. The fact that he is at 131 wattville st in 1911 with parents and 73 Wattville when he signs up for army and back at 73 after war by 1920 then he and Ellen have to be connected.

Will pick this up later.

bw

Vanessa

I have had contact from a lady living in Australia who says that her husband is decended from Ellen Kirby's half sister Jane, so here goes: -

Ellen Kirby's parents - possibly Sampson Kirby (1832 - 1878) and Caroline Jones (1845 - )
Ellen Kirby's siblings: -
Robert Sampson Kirby (1868 - ) after his dad obviously
Rose Kirby (1869 - ) could be where Rose May got her name from
Thomas Jones Kirby (1870 - ) I knew that I'd seen someone during my research with a middle name that looked like a surname. I wonder if the parents made a habit of doing this hence Ellen Kirby Clarke although it still doesn't answer where the Clarke name came from
Half siblings: -
Charles Kirby (1854 - )
Jane Kirby (1855 -1919) this is the one my contact's husband is decended from hence the full life dates
Elizabeth kirby (1861 - )
Henry Kirby (1862 - )

I have asked how sure she is of all these or whether she's guessed some of them are hers from other website trees

Lady in Australia doesn't think our Ellen is her Ellen as all her parent and sibling info came from censuses, the dates are different, so back to the drawing board.

When Ellen Kirby Clarke was found I was really excited but I can't find anything usefulabout her, I'll keep searching....

Hi anthony, shame about the australian tree but I think you need to not lose sight of what you have learnt about your family.

Have you contacted Astra for the army info on Thomas Clarke ?

As someone suggested previously It may be an idea to invest in a couple of certs. William Calrke's marriage should give you father's details and a correct age.

If you are fairly convinced between your own instincts/ knowledge and Lilian's grandaughter info that the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth is yours then that would be another possible.

I'm afraid sometimes I have spent hours and hours going round in circles when in fact a cert then made the whole search much faster.

I will keep chipping in. If you haven't done so already why don't you compile everything you know and when it happened. It might be that you are missing something obvious.

Best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa
I'm feeling a little disappointed at the moment so thanks for keeping in touch.
I was really pleased when the birth for Ellen Kirby Clarke turned up but after her birth in 1875 she disappears, I've spent part of today trawling through thousands of Ellen Clarkes that came up as possibles on 1881 census when I put in her Ellen Kirby Clarke details but, I drew a blank.
Astra has emailed the army info, there's a lot of it so I haven't attempted to go through it yet. I had started to think as Thomas was a young man and he and Ellen 'Babangton' were close neighbours, perhaps he could have been my Williams father, fogetting in my desperation to find an answer that on Lilian Clarke's birth certificate her father was a John Clarke, so if William is the one born Aston 1904 it's likely he will have the same father. Lilian's granddaughter has sent for William 1904 birth certificate so we should know the answer to that soon.
I'm sure that the Thomas and William at 1 & 4 Bk Wattville Rd will be significant, I just haven't worked out how yet, they're living too close not to be.
I have sent for the marriage certificate for Ellen Clarke 1905 West Bromwich, which seemed a good idea at the time but having trawled through all that many Ellen Clarke's I think I'll find she isn't my Ellen.
I'm keeping in close contact with Lilian's granddaughter, it's good having someone share the load when things aren't progressing.
Thanks for the suggestion re compiling all I know, good idea.
Thanks for being there
Anthony

Hi Anthony , don't despair. I have at least two brick walls in my own research which I just keep plugging away at . Sometimes it is luck , sometimes it's sheer hard work but something will fall into place.

If between you and lilian's grandaughter you can sort out what is fact and what is a good hunch then see where it leaves you. There were many many people who unfortunately didn't give the correct info . Your Ellen snr is a different year of birth on the two census you know are her.

I will have another look for John Clarke . It may be the correct name , if you get the same name on the William cert then it probably is. Where was William in 1911 though if 1904 birth correct ?

With the Thomas Clarke army info try to have a look . it might just give you a clue.

Hanging on with you !!

best wishes

Vanessa


ps have you tried tracing William Clarke's three children ? It is likely they would still be alive. There is a lady on here who offers current electoral roll look ups . put electoral roll in search box and hopefully you will find her.

Hi Anthony,

I also still keep checking the thread.

I hope the William cLarke 1904 is the correct one but as Vanessa said, where is he in 1911?

That was the reason I suggested getting his marriage cert to find his age.

I know getting certs is expensive but to find the correct details it's very important, even more so with such common names.

You will probably need the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth cert to be able to find any definite details about her, not a cheap hobby is it?

Christine

Hi Vanessa & Christine
That's why I got excited when I saw a William Clarke living at an address next door to where Ellen Babangton lived in Watville Rd, my over active imagination went off at a tangent, thinking that if Thomas was his dad he was living with him, maybe because there wasn't room at her place.
I understand what you're saying about 1904 and where was he in 1911, I also think that the 1913 one sounds better (very scientific!). A lot of people appear to have married quite young in those days, so that would have made him 23 when he married rather than 32 and 31 instead of 40 when his last child was born. We'll just have to wait and see what the cert says.
Thanks for the info about current electoral rolls, I'll have a go at that.
The only facts I really know about Ellen are that she was on Rosie's birth certificate (1900) as Ellen Babbington formerly Clarke, on Lilian's (1903) as Ellen Clarke late Babington formerly Kirby and on dad's (1910) as Ellen Babington formerly Clarke, I don't have one for Auntie Nellie (Ellen Jane) but she was born so close to Rosie that I should think her mother would be the same person. So far I don't have a birth record for William although Lilian's granddaughters mum says that there wasn't much of an age gap between them. Everything else i.e. her parents I've taken from other peoples trees.
If this 1904 birth certificate isn't William I will send for a copy of the marriage certificate.
I'm not one to give up, just have to approach it from a different angle.
Many thanks ladies
Anthony

Help!
On 1871 census John Babbington (possibly our John Babington's father) was age 45, living in Aston Manor, Warwickshire with wife Jane age 40, sons John age 7, Christopher 5, all these were born London Hampstead, there was also Edward 3 and Joseph 1 born Croyden, Surrey.
On 1881 census the family is living at No 1 Court 20 Bishopsgate St. Birmingham, Warwickshire, John Senior is now 42 (3 years younger!) born Scotland, Jane 37, (3 yrs younger!) born St Pancras, John is 16 born Hampstead, there's no Christopher, Edward is 13 & Joseph 11 both born Norwood, Surrey
In 1891 John Babington is now age 26, 'married' living at 54 Ryder Street, Birmingham with his wife Elizabeth 30 born Warwick, Birmingham, his mother-in-law Elizabeth Carrington 77 born Hereford, his brother Joseph 22 born Croyden, Surrey, a boarder Christopher age 1 born Worcester and another boarder Thomas Carrington age 20 born Warwickshire, Birmingham
Can anyone supply original images please

I have your E mail address Tony so I will send them on to you
Astra
xx

EDIT: 13:20 on their way

Thanks Astra, much appreciated

Sorry to report no obvious errors on the images for 1871 & 1881 census

Good Morning People
I had some nice news yesterday, my mum's sister's youngest granddaughter has just started a a tree on GR, this was especially good news as I'd lost touch with her family and I only knew of the existance of her older sister, now I find her and another sister. Of course you get the bad along with the good and I also learnt that her dad had died in 2006.
Back to the matter in hand, we are still waiting for the birth cert for a poss William Clarke and the marriage cert for Ellen Clarke 1905 West Brom, this cert should interest all you regular contributors as it's one with no male on it when you do the search. You don't think the cert will have no male on do you? I do hope not.

Still waiting for Ellen Clarke's copy marriage cert to arrive. Lilian's graddaughter says her birth certificate for William Clarke 1904 is due to be despatched on 20th (today) so she's hoping to get it tomorrow or Monday. Mine for Ellen Clarke marriage has depatch date of 16th August so won't be here for a while yet, it can take up to 2 weeks.

Hi Anthony, I guess we're at a bit of a standstill until you get a few more things confirmed or not with the certs. There are only so many times you can look at the same people or census .

I had a general look around last night again, randomly trying to pick up some new link. I live in Birmingham and so it is more interesting to me who lived where, places that I know etc. On a general Babington/ Birmingham search I think I found John B's brother , Edward Babington, wife Fanny ,daughter Nellie, mother Jane and an adopted child, Winifred Allwood. This isn't the best find in the world but another small piece of the bigger jigsaw. The thing that stuck with me is they were living on a road less than a mile from where I now live and virtually beside my old house.
small world !!

Hopefully next week will bring some new info and you can move forward , ever closer to the truth ? or what appears to be correct !

I did have a check for Catherine st ( Lilian birth address ) on the elec roll but unless I missed something that specific address didn't appear. Possibly re numbered ? by 1912 - first elec roll on the site I use.

Catch up later
Vanessa

Just saying hello Anthony - although I haven't contributed for a long while I like to keep an eye on your progress. Good to see that other members have come up with so much. It's as if the answer is just round the corner - but which corner!
Might I take the liberty of asking Vanessa which site you are using please re. electoral register, as mentioned in the previous post? Thanks.
Jan

Hi Brummiejan, I use a site called Midlands Historical data . It is relatively inexpensive and has helped with a number of different issues. You buy credits - I think 35 for £5 but mostly you don't need to use the credits , particularly for the elec roll as the site will produce lists of the people and places . You would then use a credit to see a page but the page itself doesn't contain any further info really , just the original list for that street etc.
I was put onto the site when I wanted to find a Warwick burial . There are other areas of the Midlands covered and quite a lot of info I just haven't looked at all.

bw
Vanessa

Hi Anthony, I tried to post this before , pressed the wrong button and lost it, so here goes.

Catherine st- 1912 - Sarah Clarke
1918- Ernest Raymond Clarke- war ref: 15876 Pte ,att Coy 4Bn ,RGA
they are not specifically at no 5 but ??
You can find them on 1911 by putting Ernest in search and Aston as key word. Born 1873

Secondly somewhere I found in the vicinity a Cyrus Kirby - ?
I can't rememeber where he was but he is somewhere round about- age similar to Ellen.

Thirdly 5 catherine st appears to be the site of the pub, and has some back to backs connected to it. On 1911 enumerators sheet there is also a bicycle factory I believe on Catherine st. ??

I hope some of this is connected in some way to your search.

Fingers crossed

Vanessa