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hi jennifer
this looks like your william in 1891 i,m guessing that he may have married or not married elizabeth hopper as it say,s she is a visitor but says that charles HOMEWOOD hopper living with him is his daughter (must be mistranscribed in census) as clearly is a male so if correct & is his child as his mothers maiden name was homewood & sometimes in them days the first born male was given the father,s mother,s maiden name i think it maybe worth getting the charles homewood hopper birth cert to see what the parents names are


1891 England Census
about William Lose
Name: William Lose
[William Love]
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Smarden, Kent, England

Civil parish: Kingstone
Ecclesiastical parish: Kingstone
Town: Kingstone
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Bridge
Sub-registration district: Barham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Lose 36
Elizabeth Hopper 37
Charles Homewood Hopper 9



England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Charles Homewood Hopper
Name: Charles Homewood Hopper
Year of Registration: 1881
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Ticehurst
County: Kent, Sussex
Volume: 2b
Page: 114 (click to see others on page)




not really sure whats going here i went to look for elizabeth in the 1881 census to see who she was living with & found her NOTE !!! that birth year & area matches both census for elizabeth

1881 England Census
about Elizabeth Hopper
Name: Elizabeth Hopper
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Charles H.
Gender: Female
Where born: Salehurst, Sussex, England

Civil parish: Burwash
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Street Address: Perchhill
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Farmers Wife

Registration district: Ticehurst
Sub-registration district: Ticehurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles H. Hopper 31
Elizabeth Hopper 27
Harriet H. Hopper 4 >>> daughter born 1877
Thomas E. Hopper 3 >>>>son 1878
Emily G. Hopper 1 >>> daughter born 1880
Spencer Simes 63 >>servant



and here is the marraige of charles h hopper


Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bourne Elizabeth Rye 2b 6
HOPPER Charles Homewood Rye 2b 6




and her she is with william love



1891 England Census
about Elizabeth Hopper
Name: Elizabeth Hopper
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Salehurst, Sussex, England

Civil parish: Kingstone
Ecclesiastical parish: Kingstone
Town: Kingstone
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Bridge
Sub-registration district: Barham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Lose 36
Elizabeth Hopper 37
Charles Homewood Hopper 9




her husband charles homewood hopper died here is his death reg


Deaths Dec 1884 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hopper Charles Homewood 35 Ticehurst 2b 65


so it looks like charles homewood hopper born in 1881 was the child of charles homewood hopper & elizabeth Bourne & not william love so when it say,s daughter/son i can only think its referring to him/her been the son/daughter of elizabeth on the census as he /she was born before charles homewood hopper(1849) who died in 1884

hope you following this cos i,m confused LOL
so there must be a connection with william love.s mother emmerline homewood & the charles homewood hopper ???

Hi Jacky, Thank you very much for your help.

You are right about Elizabeth Hopper being Charles Homewood Hopper's widow, and also the young Charles Homewood Hopper's mother but it never occurred to me that Elizabeth might have been living with William Love.

This is because William Love was the older (and dead) Charles H. Hopper's cousin. William's mother was Emmeline Homewood and Charles' mother was her sister Harriet Homewood. Emmeline married their cousin, who was also William Love (this lot don't seem very imaginative with their names and it makes things confusing).

The William Love you found in the 1891 census was living with his father, his step-mother and some of his siblings in Headcorn in the 1881 census and he wasn't married.

As you can see, in the 1891 census he was married, and if this is correct, I would dearly love to know who his wife is.

My grandfather was the 9 year old Charles Hopper, and he came out to Australia and then New Zealand with 'Uncle Bill'. He told us virtually nothing about his past, though there may have also been an Aunt Martha, who is possibly the missing wife.

If you can think of anything else that might point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate the help.

Thanks again for your help. Jennifer

hi jennifer
when did he (uncle bill ) leave england have you got the passengership deatials of his sailing or the details of your grandfatther charles leaving england & did his wife sail with him or had she maybe passed away by then ????

also have you had a look at this site

http://family-tree-russell.co.uk/S98.htm

jacky

travelling with Mr C H Hopper (aged 15)

Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: Mr W LOVE
Date of departure: 14 October 1896
Port of departure: London
Destination port: New Zealand
Destination country: New Zealand

Date of Birth: 1854 (calculated from age)
Age: 42
Marital Status: Married
Sex: Male
Occupation: Farmer
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 6 of 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ship: RIMUTAKA
Official Number:
Master's name: H E Greenstreet
Steamship Line: The New Zealand Shipping Company Limited
Where bound: New Zealand
Square feet: 3858
Registered tonnage: 2860
Passengers on voyage: 219



Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: Mr C H HOPPER
Date of departure: 14 October 1896
Port of departure: London
Destination port: New Zealand
Destination country: New Zealand

Date of Birth: 1881 (calculated from age)
Age: 15
Marital Status: Single
Sex: Male
Occupation:
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 6 of 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ship: RIMUTAKA
Official Number:
Master's name: H E Greenstreet
Steamship Line: The New Zealand Shipping Company Limited
Where bound: New Zealand
Square feet: 3858
Registered tonnage: 2860
Passengers on voyage: 219

hi Choccy
that looks good to me but strange still no wife ??

jacky

Thanks Choccy and Jacky, you are both awesome!

Just wondered if either of you have access to UK marriages or those books that have parish marriage lists and can find out who it was that the William Love married in these pages from Kent between 1881 and 1891?

I found three marriages of a William Love and a Martha:

Marriages Mar 1882
Love William Tunbridge 2a 717

Marriages Dec 1882
Love William Tunbridge 2a 1057

Marriages Mar 1888
Love William Eastry 2a 1117

There is also another part of the puzzle that I have been unable to solve: Charles Homewood Hopper told us that he finished his schooling in Australia before moving to New Zealand. I have been unable to find him or William Love (with or without a wife) going to Australia prior to 1896. Unfortunately no one knows which part of Australia he went to.

Any help you can give me with any of this would be amazing.

Best wishes, Jennifer

If anyone else is looking for William Love, I have a copy of his will that I can email you. Unfortunately it doesn't mention who he married in the 1880s though.

:-)

As far as I can see, none of those three marriage records mention a Martha :-S

Are any of this lot yours?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staplehurst/Love_family.htm

I came upon them some time ago because one of the Loves got an ancestor of mine pregnant!

Sorry, must have made a mistake with the Martha. Does anyone know who the William Love married in these three marriage entries:

Marriages Mar 1882
Love William Tunbridge 2a 717

Marriages Dec 1882
Love William Tunbridge 2a 1057

Marriages Mar 1888
Love William Eastry 2a 1117

Have you looked for each of them on the 1891 census If there are brides with different christian names then you should be able to match up who married who.

the 1888 one has only one bride
Name: William Love
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1888
Registration district: Eastry
Inferred County: Kent
Volume Number: 2a
Page Number: 1117
Maria Jane Seath (the transcriber had problems with the spelling)

Name: William Love
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Maria Love
Gender: Male
Where born: Mereworth, Kent, England
Civil parish: Brenchley
Ecclesiastical parish: Brenchley All Saints
Town: Brenchley
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Tunbridge
Sub-registration district: Brenchley
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 683
Folio: 18
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
William Love 50
Maria Love 40
View
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 683; Folio: 18; Page: 5; GSU roll: 6095793.

Thanks Shirley for confirming that William's wife is not Maria Seath. But the 1891 census still doesn't help me confirm who he did marry because in the 1891 census, William Love is in Kingstone, Kent, but his wife is not at home. William Love just has Elizabeth and Charles Hopper staying with him. These two are my grandfather and my g-grandmother.

I am still looking for William Love's wife and hope that someone will help please by clicking on a link and telling me what it says.

Because free census look ups on Ancestry are available this weekend, I searched one more time on William Love - born in Smarden in 1855 - and I noticed that there are links on the left hand side that Ancestry believes are connected to the person searched on.

Could someone please search for William Love on the 1881 Census (see details below) and then click on the marriage index link on the left hand side of the screen and tell me who the woman is that my William Love married?

These are the details for my William Love in 1881:


William Love
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: William Love
Mother: Elizabeth Love
Gender: Male
Where born: Smarden, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Rolvenden
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address: Corn Hill
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Farmers Son
Registration District: Tenterden
Sub-registration District: Rolvenden
ED, institution, or vessel: 7

Thanks a lot, Jennifer

William Love
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1855
Age: 23
Father's Name: William Love
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Kennard
Spouse's Age: 29
Spouse's Father's Name: John Kennard
Marriage Date: 19 Mar 1878
Marriage Place: Brighton, Sussex, England

So no good unless he is keeping the marriage quiet.

Mary Ann Kennard is from Waldron Sussex and is living with her family/servant in Brighton in 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses.

And probably has children Mary, Jane and Daisy in 1891(living Hackney, married, no husband present) and 1901(living Brighton, widowed).

Thank you Patchem!!! That's great.

I'm pretty sure that Elizabeth 1854, Harriet Hannah 1878 and Emily Grace Hopper 1880 went out to New Zealand. Possibly they stayed there.

I thought that perhaps Elizabeth had died as Harriet was in the London Orphans Asylum in 1891. In 1901 she was a servant in Battle Sussex. Close to were she was born.

Emily in 1891 was in Reedham Asylum for Fatherless Children, Coulsdon, Surrey and in 1901 she was a nursemaid in Hastings Sussex. Also there was William Hopper 1893, her brother?


Name: Miss H Hopper
Gender: Female
Age: 27
Birth Date: abt 1878
Departure Date: 1 Nov 1905
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Wellington, New Zealand
Ship Name: Tongariro
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Tongariro' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: The New Zealand Shipping Company, Limited
Master: J A Sutcliffe

Travelling with her were Mrs Elizabeth Hopper aged 51 and Miss E G Hopper aged 25. I think Thomas Edward went out in 1954 to visit when he was 76 I found him coming back again.

Elizabeth in 1901 was a widow living alone on her own means

Name: Elizabeth Hopper
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854

Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Robertsbridge, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Ewhurst
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Ewhurst
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Registration District: Battle
Sub-registration District: Battle
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 79
Piece: 877
Folio: 24
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Hopper 47
View
Original
Record

The problem with Thomas Edward is I have him coming back from NZ before he went out!!

Outgoing
Name: Mr Thomas E Hopper
Gender: Male
Age: 76
Birth Date: abt 1878
Departure Date: 19 Mar 1954
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Wellington, New Zealand
Ship Name: R M S Rangitoto
Search Ship Database: Search the 'R M S Rangitoto' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: New Zealand Shipping Company Limited
Official Number: 183069
Master: C R Pilcher

Incoming

Name: Thomas E Hopper
Birth Date: abt 1878
Age: 75
Port of Departure: Wellington, New Zealand
Arrival Date: 12 Jun 1953
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Ship Name: Rangitane
Search Ship Database: View the 'Rangitane' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: New Zealand Shipping Company Ltd
Official Number: 18315

Both of the above sailing state he was a farmer and have reference to an address both are care of people in Sussex, one in Robertsbridge and one in nearby Battle.

There is also a coming in in 1938 going out in 1939,

Perhaps he is living in New Zealand and making visits back hom to Sussex that would make sense of the dates being the wrong way round.

*****EDIT****
See thread posted at 13.54 which proved he went out to AUSTRALIA in 1900

Wendy

1914-1918 soldiers
Private Thomas Edward Hopper number 37096, shepherd,next of kin Mrs Elizabeth Hopper (mother) 96 Rutene Road, Kaiti,Gisborne.

Note Gisbourne is in the North East of New Zealand
So Thomas was living there.

This is new
Private William Hopper number 57360, Station Manager, next of kin Mrs Elizabeth Hopper (mother)96 Rutene Road, Kaiti, Gisbourne

So they were brothers and went out together to AUSTRALIA


Name: Thos Edd Hopper
Gender: Male
Age: 22
Birth Date: abt 1878
Departure Date: 9 Nov 1900
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Ortona
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Ortona' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Master: Lindsay Hay

Name: William Hopper
Gender: Male
Age: 17
Birth Date: abt 1883
Departure Date: 9 Nov 1900
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Ortona
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Ortona' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Master: Lindsay Hay


Williams birth


Name: HOPPER, WilliamRegistration district: [?] Ticehurst County: SussexYear of registration: 1883Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3Volume no:[?]2BPage no:[?]106