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adoption??..........this thread ANSWERED

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 22:25

I'm not following. Jane and Eli married in 1917 -- why is this inconsistent with a death in 1916? That Charles was killed in early April 1916, and your Jane married in early 1917.

This marriage

Marriages Mar 1917
ANDERSON Jane E Evans Leigh 8c 284
Evans Eli Anderson Leigh 8c 284

shows the father's name as William Griffiths?

I wonder whether Jane was born a Kelly outside/before her parents' marriage?

Does the record give Jane's age at marriage?

You may have missed my last post on page 1 -- please can you tell us what the mother's surname on your mother's birth record is? If you can't figure out how to find it, and you don't want to put your mum's personal info here, send me a private message and I'll find it.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 22:31

Another question -- can you tell us where and when Jane Ellen Evans died?

Her death record would give her age -- and if she died after 1969, it would give her actual date of birth (as long as she and the person who registered the death knew it).

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 22:35

Eli Evans's death

Name: Eli Evans
Death Registration Month/Year: 1959
Age at death (estimated): 65 = dob c1894
Registration district: Leigh
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 15


Jane's death?

Name: Jane E Evans
Death Registration Month/Year: 1939
Age at death (estimated): 45 = dob c1894
Registration district: Leigh
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 416

Joy Kentish Maid

Joy Kentish Maid Report 26 Mar 2011 22:37

Elaine, how about sending for the marriage certificate for Jane and Eli? Then more pieces will be added to the jigsaw and more questions can be asked again once you have the certificate.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 22:44

So ... how about her father was really William Kelly, her mother was Griffiths, she was born before the marriage, and she made up "William Griffiths" (as many people in that situation did) when she married?

Two possible Ms Griffiths here! One named Jane, one with the middle name Ellen!!! Dang!! William George Kelly married one of 'em, anyhow. ;)

Marriages Mar 1900
Davies George William H W. Derby 8b 567
?? Griffiths Emily Jane W. Derby 8b 567
?? Griffiths Sarah Ellen W. Derby 8b 567
Kelly William George W. Derby 8b 567


Births Mar 1893?
Griffiths Jane Ellen Toxteth Park 8b 184


No, wait, that doesn't make sense. She wouldn't make up a father with a *different* surname. ;) I'll just leave this for pondering ...


Joy -- isn't Elaine saying that she found a parish record for the marriage of Jane and Eli? Yes, the certificate would still be a good thing.


If Elaine would just tell us *what the mother's surname* on Elaine's mother's birth record is .........


Just to note too re the possible Charles Anderson -- the child who died in infancy was born shortly after the marriage, suggesting a marriage of necessity. It could be that the couple became estranged not long after marriage, which would be why the wife wasn't mentioned in the record at the CWGC.

Elaine

Elaine Report 26 Mar 2011 23:30

can't find any details other than name on the freebmd site. dont know if i doing what i should...i an oap,and have only had a comp for a couple of years,so am not au fait with everything,thats why the people on here have found details that i couldn't find! lol have found a jane ellen griffith(my aunty[88]insists its without an "e")..she was born in pwellhi

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 23:42

The mother's surname is right there with the name.

The headings are

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

and then it will say "Births [year]"

and then something like

Smith Susan Brown Prestwich 8d 660

which means

Surname Smith, First name Susan, mother Brown, district Prestwich, vol 8d, page 660

You need to tell us what the surname under "mother" is!

You're doing very well, just do that last bit. ;)

>> We're talking about your mother's birth, not your grandmother's.

(Before 1911, the mother's surname doesn't appear.)

Elaine

Elaine Report 26 Mar 2011 23:51

janey,my aunty(88)now thinks her mother,jane ellen might have been fostered,not adopted...she knew she came from wales and that her name was griffith(without the s )...i only found one for 1894,and she came from pwelli,

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 23:55

Elaine -- we really need to know what mother's surname is on your mother's birth record.

Do you want to send me a private message (click on my name) giving me your mother's name and date of birth, and I can look it up?

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 00:09

Either of these is possible

Births Dec 1893
Griffith Jane Ellen Pwllheli 11b 373
Births Mar 1894
Griffith Jane Ellen Pwllheli 11b 387

(Because the first was born in late 1893, she would have been the right age in the year your Jane died.)



Here is the Jane Ellen Griffith born 1894 in Pwllhelli reg dist, in the 1901 census -- not a lot of help!

Name: Jane Ellie Griffith
Age in 1901: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanbedrog, Caernarvonshire, Wales

Civil parish: Llanbedrog
Ecclesiastical parish: Llanbedrog
County/Island: Merionethshire
Country: Wales

John Jones 64
Jane Jones 64
Mary Jones 28
Elizath Jones 24
William R Jones 14 - grandson
Jane Ellie Griffith 8


Here she is in 1911:

GRIFFITH JANE ELLEN F 1894 17 Pwllheli Carnarvonshire

but I don't pay for 1911 details so I can't see who she's living with, other than surname Jones. No William, though.


There's a possible William Griffith + Mary Jones marriage in Pwllheli in 1891, but there's already a daughter Mary Jones in that 1901 household, so that wouldn't work. There's a possible William Griffith + Anne Jones marriage there in 1890 ... possible William Griffith + Jane Jones in 1883 ...

I'll see what I can find for what other daughters those grandparents might have had.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 00:19

Here is that household in 1881:

John Jones 44 farmer 32 acres
Jane Jones 44
John Jones 19
Robert Jones 15
Owen Jones 13
Mary Jones 8
Eliza Jones 4
Laura Rowlands 18 servant


and in 1871

John Jones 34
Jane Jones 34
William Owen Jones 6
Robert Jones 5
Owen Jones 2


so the sum total of their daughters is: Mary and Eliza/Elizabeth.

No marriage to a William Griffith for either one *unless* Mary Jones, shown as single in 1901, had in fact married.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 00:29

Mary Jones was in the family home still in 1891 ... but this is interesting:

John Jones 54
Jane Jones 54
Mary Jones 18
Eliza Jones 14
Margreat Griffith 3 - niece
Eliza Griffith 1 - niece
Loura Evans 18 servant


That becomes pretty tangled, I'm afraid -- what the relationship of the nieces might be, and to the granddaughter in 1901.


If you aren't going to give us the info about your mother's mother's surname from your mother's birth record, or the info we need to find it, I give up!

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 00:53

she was widowed when she married my grandad,so children would be evans/anderson births. anderson being the name of her first husband

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 02:07

No, Elaine! A child's birth certificate shows the mother's *birth* surname!

It will probably also show her previous married surname -- but what is in the index that we can search is her *birth* surname, at least as she reported it.

You sent me a PM but you still haven't given any information that would provide that name.

Your mother's birth will be in the births index, which can be searched at FreeBMD, and it will show *her* mother's *birth* ("maiden") surname!

We need to know that!!

But right now, I have to go home from the office, so I'll look in tomorrow. ;)

Meanwhile, please read through the thread again carefully and note any other questions and so on. (For instance, I still don't understand why you don't think the Charles Edward Anderson death I posted on page 1 would not be the right one.)

K

K Report 27 Mar 2011 06:47

Just to fill in this is the full detials of the 1911 Jane Ellen that JaneyCanuck posted. I understand that nith means niece

Also dug a bit and Jane Ellen's children with Eli do have the mother's maiden name listed as Griffiths

As you have access to the Eli Evans and Jane Ellen Anderson marriage maybe a way forward would be to buy the Charles Anderson - Jane E Kelly marriage to either confirm it is the right couple or rule it out, althpugh with Charles middle intial being E it does look good.

1911

PRITCHARD, Margaret Gwraig Gweddw F 68 1843 Hendy Llanbedrog Sir Carnarvon VIEW
JONES, Elizabeth Nith Sengl F 34 1877 Llanbedrog Carnarvonshire VIEW
GRIFFITH, Jane Ellen Nith Sengl F 17 1894 Cashier Mwen Draper Shop Llanbedrog Carnarvonshire VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
34380 Reference:
RG14PN34380 RG78PN1986 RD629 SD2 ED8 SN151

Registration District:
Pwllheli Sub District:
Pwllheli Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Llanbedrog

Address:
Hendy Llanbedrog County:
Carnarvonshire

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 16:03

my mum was hilda stockton(nee evans) ...she was born 16th october 1925

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 16:04

sorry...she was born in the house i was born in....178,leigh rd. howe bridge(a district of atherton)lancashire

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 16:12

my mums birth record says mothers maiden name>griffith

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 21:43

Actually, Elaine, your mother's birth registration says her mother's surname was GriffithS.

Maybe your aunt made a point of saying it was not GriffithS, it was Griffith, because it had been got wrong on records.

But it really does seem to be GriffithS everywhere, including her father's name when she married Eli Evans.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 23:16

This is the Charles Edward Anderson whose WWI death record I posted on page 1 -- who was possibly married to Jane E Kelly in 1915 in Wigan:


1901

Name: Charles E Anderson
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James H Anderson
Mother's Name: Winfred Anderson
Gender: Male
Where born: Atherston, Lancashire, England (it says Atherton)

Civil parish: Hindley (district 14)
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
> Town: Hindley
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Wigan

James H Anderson 34 - born Wales
Winfred Anderson 36 - born Ireland
William Anderson 10
Charles E Anderson 9
Lucy Anderson 2


James Anderson married Winifred Patten 1889 Leigh, but I can't find a birth for Charles. (Atherton is in Leigh reg dist.)


When I looked him up, I had already been paying some attention to this person in 1901:

Name: Jane Ellen Griffith
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary Griffith
Where born: Hindley, Lancashire, England

> Civil parish: Hindley (district 17)
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Hindley
County/Island: Lancashire

Mary Griffith 43
Stephen Fitzpatrick 22
Norah Fitzpatrick 17
Catherine Mary Fitzpatrick 15
Michael Fitzpatrick 6
Jane Ellen Griffith 2


Births Sep 1898
Griffiths Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 119


This is a little confusing because in 1891, that family has parents Michael and Mary Fitzpatrick (Michael was born in Ireland, died in 1897). If Jane Ellen Griffith(s) was Mary's daughter, where did Mary and Jane get the surname Griffith(s)?


This Jane would not have been old enough to marry in 1915 -- except that the Jane E Kelly who married Charles E Anderson was apparently pregnant ...

... and might possibly have lied about her age ... and even her name.