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Hi Carol,

Marriage Details:
St John's Church Nottingham 22 Feb 1857
Richard Peel 21yrs Lace Maker of Corby Place Father Thomas Peel a FWK
Mary Peel 28yrs of Corby Place Father William Peel a FWK
Witnesses James & Mary Cope.

I wont be going to the archives again now until after the new Year.

Merry Christmas

Wendy

Hi Wendy
I wondered if you found anything at the archives relating to frances helen thornton .
Regards madeline

Hello Wendy

Thanks very much for that, I really appreciate it. It has confirmed that they were 2nd cousins. I hope to have a day at Nottingham RO in the new year (weather permitting) so I won't be bothering you (for a while anyway) Hope you have a lovely Christmas.

Regards
Carol

Hi Madeline,

Sorry for got to post your result. I haven't been able to find anything on Frances Thornton. Women wasn't allowed to vote until 1918.
I'll keep a look out in case anything turns up.

Sorry about that.

Wendy

Thank you for looking I have a very elusive grandmother .
merry christmas
Madeline

Hi Wendy, I was wondering if you might be able to help me in any way. I need to find out a little more information about a little girl who was murdered in 1924 in Sutton-in-Ashfield. Her name was Rosa Armstrong and later that same year, Arthur Simms, Rosa's older sister's Husband was hanged in Nottingham for the murder.

There have been rumours ever since I can remember about a murder and hanging in my family but don't know if Rosa might be the one. I have found a couple of brothers and sisters in the birth records but I don't know who her mum and dad were etc.

Is there anything you can do to help before I send for Rosa's birth and death certificates?

Thanks very much for any help you can offer and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.

Wayne Armstrong

Hi Wayne,

found this about Arthur Simms Hanging:

Arthur Simms

Age:- 25
Date of Execution:- Wednesday, 17th December, 1924
Location of Execution:- Nottingham
Hangman:- Thomas Pierrepoint
Assistants:- Robert Baxter
Tried At:- Nottingham
Trial Dates:- 29th October - 1st November, 1924
Trial Judge:- Mister Commissioner Walker
Crime:- Murder
Victims:-
Name:- Rosa Armstrong
Age:- 9
Location of Murder:- Field near Calladine Lane, Sutton-in-Ashfield
Date of Murder:- Friday, 27th June, 1924
Method of Murder:- Strangled
Relationship to Killer:- Sister-in-Law.

I can look at archives of the Evening Post at Nottingham Library to see if there is a report on the court case and see if that gives any info on the child's family.
Rosa Armstrong born Sept Qtr 1915 mother's maiden name Smallman.
The only marriage for a Armstrong to a Smallman I can find is Frederick Armstrong to Maria Smallman Dec Qtr 1891 Chesterfield.
I can find no marriage between Arthur Simms and a female Armstrong.
I can look at church records to see if there is any christenings for any Armstrong Children.

Merry Christmas

Wendy

Thanks for any help you can offer Wendy. I had all the information about the hanging and have discovered most things from the recently launched newspaper archive although there was one copy of the Evening Post from October 31st 1924 that wouldn't open online and the preview looked like it might contain more info.

Thanks for the info on the Frederick Armstrong, Maria Smallman marriage as I hadn't spotted that one and it is likely that it the correct one so I'll try and figure out which branch of the family Maria came from. The reason you probably couldn't find an Arthur Simms / Armstrong marriage is that in a letter to the authorities pleading for leniancy for her husband, Rosa's sister states that she had already lost two husbands in the war. This again came from Evening Post newspaper reports. Any info on the trial would be good as it may give names of witnesses as I know from the newspapers that his wife gave evidence.

I have found several brothers and sisters born after 1911 with mmn of Smallman and it seems that they all likely died in early childhood which makes Rosa's death even more tragic. Obviously though there are likely to be other siblings born before 1911 and the online records don't give mmn.

Thanks again

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I wondered if Arthur's wife was a widow when he married her as the only marriage I could find was Arthur Sims to Ethel Morden Dec 1921.

I also found the newspaper site but what a shame you have to pay for it, I found 7 artciles about the murder and hanging so noted down the dates to look for when I go to the library. You say only 31 Oct 1924 didn't open does that mean you payed and manged to read the others and just want me to look up that dated one.

Wendy

Hi Wendy,
i did pay yes, I couldn't resist it unfortunately, so if you need anything looking up, please ask. There are several articles which give some good background info, most of which are from the Nottingham Evening Post. The 31st October one comes up with an error when you try and open it, so that one is the one I'm interested in if you can track it down as the preview seems to indicate that there are more details about how police were directed to Rosa's body. I'm not sure what other newspaper records exist where you will be going but if there are any Mansfield ones or Sutton-in-Ashfield ones, that would be great too as it seems that they are not on the newspaper archive site yet.

I've just done some digging based around the marriage you found and I have managed to get back to the late 1700's based on census records and if they are all correct and relate to the correct Rosa then there is no relation to my side of the family that I can see yet.

I'm still intrigued by the story though so would love to put the whole picture together.

Thanks again and Merry Christmas to you

Wayne

By the way, there was an Ethel Armstrong born 1893 under the Frederick Armstrong / Maria Smallman family. So, looks like she married and was widowed in WWI - twice - the second marriage would be to a Mr Morden and then she married Arthur Sims in 1921.

All the best

Wayne

Sorry to keep bombarding your thread with messages but it seems your Frederick / Maria marriage find was key.

Ethel Armstrong b1893 married William Parnham in Chesterfield in 1912. Ethel Parnham married Edward Mordon in Mansfield in 1917 and then Ethel Morden married Arthur Sims in 1921.

So looks like we've probably cracked it, but any details you can add regarding the murder etc would still be really appreciated as the story still interests me.

Merry Christmas

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I will look up the 31Oct paper as soon as I can. I think papers more local to Mansfield and Sutton in Ashfield are more likely to be at Mansfield library.

Well I'm no relation but i'm really interested to find out about it all to now.

Merry Christmas and Happy new year.

Wendy

Hi Wayne,

That's OK you can keep bombarding all you like, good that you manged to find Ethels marriages, does that mean they are connected to you.

Wendy

Hi,
no not over the last few generations anyway. I do have ancestors from Sutton in Ashfield and from Derbyshire so there may be a connection but at the moment it looks like it goes back beyond the 1760's. That's just based on the census information though and the conjecture that Rosa Armstrong b1915 with mmn of Smallman is the same Rosa that was murdered, but it looks likely.

I agree about the Mansfield papers. Mansfield library is closed until early January though due to refurbishment over the last 18 months. Can't wait to get in there as I have only been doing my family tree for 6 months or so and have loads to check up on.

All the best

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Well you never know. Hope you are enjoying doing your tree I've been doing mine for over 10yrs now.

As there is not much to do at the moment I have been looking at burial records for Sutton in Ashfield Cemetery and found that Rosa was buried there on 1 July 1924 grave 5469 as home address was Woodhouse Yd.

Also found that Frederick Armstrong died 17 Nov 1918 aged 47yrs buried 21 Nov 1918 Grave 5034 says he was a miner of Alfreton Rd
Joseph Armstrong aged 4 yrs died 20 Nov 1918 buried 25 Nov 1918 Grave 5034 of 78 Alfreton Rd.
Edward Armstrong aged 15 months died 9 June 1919 buried 12 June 1919 grave 5034 of of 28 Woodhouse Yd.

As Rosa and Edward was both of Woodhouse Yd we have put the right family together.

Wendy

Having loads of fun thanks. Although most of the people around me think I'm a little off my rocker.

How's about this for a co-incidence though...

My dad, Malcolm Armstrong married my mum Kathleen Swann in the 60's and naturally I have been tracing both lines back. Her dad was a miner in Pleasley and he was born in 1906. His name was Albert. He was born at Woodhouse Yard, Sutton in Ashfield. His dad was killed in World War 1 and I know from a younger brother's death certificate who died in infancy in 1915 that they were still living there at the time. It seems The Armstrongs and The Swanns probably knew each other way before my mum and dad got together, even if it was a different branch of Armstrongs (yet to be proved).

Spooky or what?

Hi Wendy and Happy New Year.

Would you be able to look up a baptism for me please. I'd like to know who the parents of Eliza Bradford born c1848 were. In one census she gives her place of birth as St Marys Nottingham. It would be great if you manage to identify any siblings too.

Thank you

Chris

Hello Wendy

I have seven Murphy relatives who are buried in Nottingham. Would it be at all possible for you to do a look up the next time you are at the Library please?

Please let me know and I will forward their names, dates of death and relevant age at death.

Regards
Mary

Hi Mary,

Yes of course let me have the details.

Wendy