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1861 Wales Census - missing records

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HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 08:38

RENAMED THREAD - WHOLE SECTION OF CENSUS MISSING?

I first posted this thread about a year ago. Now, I am trying to pull together "A Llewellyn Family History" as a present for Christmas for my 86 year-old dad.

Mary Llewellyn was my great grandfather's sister.

You'll see from the original thread and posts that I know pretty much everything about her but I AM MISSING ONE CENSUS- 1861. We, as a community have not managed to find her/them previously, but maybe a fresh pair of eyes could help?

So here are the facts:

Mary was born in 1827 in Roath Cardiff.
In 1860, as widow Mary Taylor, she married John Davie, born Bristol in 1829
At the time of their wedding they were living at John Street Roath
In June 1861, when their son was born,they were at Spring Gardens Roath
Mary Jane Taylor, her daughter from her first marriage, was born in Plymouth in 1852.

But try as (we all) might, we have not found them in, I assume Wales, 1861 census. One last try?

ALSO, Mary Jane Taylor married Daniel Cadogan. In 1891 census - for reference

Name: Mary J Cadogan
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Daniel Cadogan
Gender: Female
Where born: Plymouth, Devon, England
Civil parish: Awre
Ecclesiastical parish: Blakeney
Town: Awre
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration district: Westbury On Severn
Sub-registration district: Newnham
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2004
Folio: 48
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Cadogan 44
Mary J Cadogan 39
Clifford Cadogan 15
Ernest Cadogan 14
Aleck Cadogan 12
Gladys Cadogan 9
May Cadogan 7
Mary Simms 17
Ambrose Phillips 18

By 1896 Daniel is in Caversham Otago New Zealand as evidenced by electoral roll

Name: Daniel Cadogan
Electoral Year: 1896
District: Caversham
Region or Province: Otago

The first time I find Mary Jane is in 1900

Name: Mary Jane Cadogan
Electoral Year: 1900
District: Caversham
Region or Province: Otago

I have not found Mary after this and I never find them together. I know that Mary Jane spent much time travelling Europe with her pianist daughter Alice.

I'd like to find emigration to New Zealand for each of them and the children. I understand they originally travelled together in 1891 to Melbourne and then to Tasmania where they stayed for about 3 or 4 years before travelling to Dunedin.

Then I know Mary Jane and Alice were in London brought Alice May and Emily Gladys back to Wales in late 1890's and then returned to London in early 1900s with Alice May.

So any emigration/immigration/travel records would be marvellous!

Any info you can give me will make an old man very happy :-)

patchem

patchem Report 23 Oct 2011 08:58

Mary jane might not be with them in 1861, illegitimate daughters often seem to be sent elsewhere.

Just for reference:
Marriages Dec 1860
xxx Davie John Cardiff 11a 403
Howell Mary Cardiff 11a 403
xxx Taylor Mary Cardiff 11a 403
Wright Thomas Stephen Cardiff 11a 403

Added:
And also just for reference
1851 Wales Census
John Davie Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Son-in-Law Gender: Male Where born: Bristol Civil Parish or Township: Cardiff St Mary County/Island: Glamorgan Country: Wales Registration district: Cardiff Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 4i Piece: 2455 Folio: 385 Page Number: 64 Household schedule number: 157
John Cattle 36
Jane Cattle 43
William Cattle 5
John Davie 21
George Davie 15
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2455; Folio: 385; Page: 64; GSU roll: 104196-104197.

Dea

Dea Report 23 Oct 2011 09:03

Can you post the 1871 for reference please Jude as I can't seem to find it ?

Thanks,

Dea x

patchem

patchem Report 23 Oct 2011 09:04

Neither could I, Dea, which is why I added the 1851 just for starters.

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 23 Oct 2011 09:06

1871 (Reference)

DAVIES, John Head M 42 1829 Somerset (Publican)
DAVIES, Mary Wife F 45 1826 Glamorgan
DAVIES, George Son M 9 1862 Glamorgan
DAVIES, Emily Daughter F 7 1864 Glamorgan
DAVIES, Alice M Daughter F 5 1866 Glamorgan
TAyLOR, Mary J Daughter F 1852 Devon
Piece:
5357 Folio:
45 Page:
29 Registration District:
Cardiff
Civil Parish:
Roath Municipal Borough:
Cardiff Address:
Crewys Wold, Roath, Cardiff County:
Glamorganshire

Chris :)

Gins

Gins Report 23 Oct 2011 09:08

1861 Wales Census
about John Davies
Name: John Davies
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Davies
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England

Civil Parish or Township: Merthyr Tydfil
Ecclesiastical parish: Merthyr Tydfil
Town: Merthyr Tydfil
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales


Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Upper Merthyr Tydfil
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household schedule number: 47
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4060
Folio: 43
Page Number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
John Davies 31 <<Iron miner
Mary Davies 27
Elizabeth Davies 6
Mary Ann Davies 4
William Hobbs 28
John Lewis 36

???


patchem

patchem Report 23 Oct 2011 09:08

?? 1871
1871 Wales Census
John Davies
Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head spouse's Name: Mary Davies
Gender: Male Where born: Bristol, Somerset, England Civil parish: Roath Ecclesiastical parish: Roath County/Island: Glamorgan Country: Wales Registration district: Cardiff Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 378
Piece: 5357 Folio: 45 Page Number: 29

John Davies 42 Publican
Mary Davies 45
Mary J Taylor 19 Plymouth Devon
George Davies 9
Emily Davies 7
Alice M Davies 5

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 5357; Folio: 45; Page: 29; GSU roll: 848450.

Dea

Dea Report 23 Oct 2011 09:09

Thank you Chris !!

Dea x

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 23 Oct 2011 09:11

(glad it got there, Error, struck again, lol)

Chris :)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 09:12

Patchem, Mary Jane wasn't illegitimate. She was the daughter of Mary and Samuel Taylor. Samuel died in the Crimea in 1854

1871 - yes sorry mistranscribed as Davies :-)

Name:Mary Davies
Age:45
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1826
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:John Davies
Gender:Female
Where born:Roath, Glamorganshire, Wales
Civil parish:Roath
Ecclesiastical parish:Roath
County/Island:Glamorgan
Country:Wales
Registration district:Cardiff
Sub-registration district:Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel:3
Household schedule number:378
Piece:5357
Folio:45
Page Number:29
Household Members:e
John Davies 42
Mary Davies 45
Mary J Taylor 19
George Davies 9
Emily Davies 7
Alice M Davies 5

I know this is them - address is Cryws Hotel which was owned by Mary's father Thomas Llewellyn at the time

For completeness - 1881 also mistranscribed
Name:Mary Daire
Age:52
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1829
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:John Daire
Gender:Female
Where born:Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish:Cardiff St John
County/Island:Glamorgan
Country:Wales
Street Address:Woodville Road
Education:View image
Employment status:View image
Registration district:Cardiff
Sub-registration district:Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel:5a
Neighbors:View others on page
Piece:5277
Folio:58
Page Number:109
Household Members:
John Daire 52
Mary Daire 52
George Daire 19
Alice Daire 15
Clifford Cadogan 5

And I know this is them because by then Mary Jane had married Daniel Cadogan.

Jude

patchem

patchem Report 23 Oct 2011 09:52

Have you found Thomas Llewellyn (Mary's Father) in 1861?

Dea

Dea Report 23 Oct 2011 10:20

I checked that Patchem, she was not with Thomas Llewellyn + family!

Dea x

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 10:42

Yes Patchem/Dea...this is Thomas and Jane in 1861

Name:Thomas Llewellyn
Age:56
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1805
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Jane Llewellyn
Gender:Male
Where born:Roath, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish or Township:Llanedeyrn
County/Island:Glamorgan
Country:Wales
Registration district:Cardiff
Sub-registration district:Caerphilly
ED, institution, or vessel:10b
Household schedule number:21
Neighbors:View others on page
Piece:4030
Folio:31
Page Number:5
Thomas Llewellyn 56
Jane Llewellyn 56
Thomas Llewellyn 22
Sydney Bailey 8
Mary MA Carthy 15

I have even tried trawling the pages of this census to see if they were nearby and mistranscribed (again) but to no avail. I only found them in 1881 because I got a hint for Clifford Cadogan. I have also tried looking near Mary's brothers and sisters - again to no avail (yet). I have assumed that as they married in Cardiff in 1860 and they were settled there in 1871 that they must be in Cardiff in 1861

Jude

Dea

Dea Report 23 Oct 2011 10:47

Have you tried following Samuel Taylor's family?

I haven't been able to trace him back yet - Do you know anything about him?

Dea x

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 11:05

No I haven't done anything on Samuel at all. In 1851, Mary is at her parents as Mary Taylor. I then came up with a marriage in Cardiff in Q1 1851 (i.e. just before the census). I then found a Samuel Taylor born Middleton Lancashire 1824 in a barracks in Roath. I am now in contact with Mary Jane's descendant and found that Samuel was posted with the 77th East Middlesex Regiment to Plymouth where Mary Jane was born. He was then posted to Wolverhampton and Glasgow before being sent to the Crimea. He died, probably of cholera, on a hospital ship in Scutari in 1854.

I have put an update on an earlier thread on Mary and Samuel (it's on Geneaology chat 'cos I was new to it at the time!!) with this info (yesterday). On that thread there are two possibilities for Samuel born Middleton at that time.

I'm as sure as I can be that Samuel's family never featured - I am not even sure Mary would have even met them. It seems likely they met when he was in barracks in Cardiff.

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 11:58

John and Mary had a son born in June 1861 (George) - I am trying to find out from a descendant of his where in Roath (street address) George was born [guessing that maybe, just maybe, that would be where they were living in census....]

Jude

Dea

Dea Report 23 Oct 2011 11:59

You are not a grandmother yet then Jude???

Don't forget that little Mary Jane would be the grand-daughter of Samuel's parents!

They had lost their son in the War, maybe they would want to have contact with his daughter (their grandchild)?

Dea x

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 23 Oct 2011 12:36

No not yet.....though my daughters are old enough! Perhaps I'll give that angle a go for Mary Jane - although it still doesn't help with her mother!!

But I have searched for Mary Jane on her own and nothing comes up in any UK census for her born in Plymouth :-(

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 28 Oct 2011 19:44

When they married in 1860, Mary's address on the marriage certificate was John Street Roath.

When their first son was born in June 1861 they were at Spring Gardens Roath.

I have perused every page of the Roath 1861 districts and St John districts...and still can't find any family that could be them.... :-(

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 26 Nov 2012 18:42

To get it on the radar!!