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1861 Wales Census - missing records

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 08:33

Choccy - brilliant. I had been told by a NZ descendant that Mary Jane (and Alice May) were frequent travellers!

The nearest relative is a bit of a stretch although she is certainly a relative..I have that census

Jude

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 29 Nov 2012 09:55

(no help 1861, from Baptism, all done together 1872!) (FInd My Past)

Forenames:George
Surname:Davie
Baptism Year:1872
Baptism Month:Mar
Baptism Day:21
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:1861
Birth Month:Jun
Birth Day:24
Fathers Forenames:John
Mothers Forenames:Mary
Page:
Record source:Glamorgan baptisms transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

Forenames:Emily
Surname:Davie
Baptism Year:1872
Baptism Month:Mar
Baptism Day:21
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:1863
Birth Month:Apr
Birth Day:8
Fathers Forenames:John
Mothers Forenames:Mary

Forenames:Alice
Surname:Davie
Baptism Year:1872
Baptism Month:Mar
Baptism Day:21
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:1865
Birth Month:Oct
Birth Day:7
Fathers Forenames:John
Mothers Forenames:Mary


Forename(s):Mary Jane
Surname:Taylor
Year:1852
Month:Apr
Day:7
Father's Forename:Samuel (Private, 77th Regt.)
Mother's Forename:Mary
Mother's Surname:
Birth Day:24
Birth Month:Mar
Birth Year:1852
Dedication:St Andrew
Place:Plymouth
County:Devon
(adress, Notte (Street)


Forenames:Alice Mary (May)
Surname:Cadogan
Baptism Year:1883
Baptism Month:May
Baptism Day:30
Place:Cardiff, St John & St Andrew
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:1883
Birth Month:May
Birth Day:4
Fathers Forenames:Daniel
Mothers Forenames:Mary Jane

Chris :)

Burials (if them)

Day:03
Month:Mar
Year:1890
Age:60
Title:
Forenames:JOHN
Surname:DAVIE
Maiden name:
OS Grid Ref:ST 199778
Place:Roath
Description:St.Margaret
County:Glamorgan
Country:Wales

Day:05
Month:Mar
Year:1901
Age:73
Title:
Forenames:MARY
Surname:DAVIE
Maiden name:
OS Grid Ref:ST 199778
Place:Roath
Description:St.Margaret

First name(s): Mary
Last name: DAVIE
Date of burial 9 Mar 1901
Age at death: 72
Calculated year of birth: 1829
Place of burial Roath
Dedication: St Margaret
County: Glamorganshire

(will delete if you already have)

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 29 Nov 2012 10:18

MISS ALICE MAY CADOGAN.
Otago Witness, 11 March 1903

(have a look at Alice!, from below link, newspapers NZ)


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

Chris :)

DOCTORS, HOSPITALS, AND BUSINESS MEN
Evening Post, 3 June 1920

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 11:59

Wow Chris - maybe she wasn't so much a fantasist then!! Brill thanks.

Leave the baptisms and burials - I'll have a look tonight. I have George's birth certificate (I think) and he was definitely born June 24 1861. So Mary would have been very heavily pregnant at the time of the census. Their address at the birth was Spring Gardens Roath but I have trawled the census page by page to no avail :-(

 Sue In Yorkshire.

Sue In Yorkshire. Report 29 Nov 2012 13:12

Jude,

What is the father's occupation on the birth cert for George.??

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 13:43

I can't access it from work but when he died he was a retired inn keeper

Jude

 Sue In Yorkshire.

Sue In Yorkshire. Report 29 Nov 2012 14:17

I have done all of Glamorganshire,Carmarthenshire and nearly finished Pembrokeshireon the 1861.

I have found a couple of John Davies born 1829/30 married but as a visitor but not as a publican.

Will keep looking I like touring around Wales.easier than walking it..

Have you found them seperately.?


HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 14:36

I have not found any of them in 1861. I am as sure as I can be that they would be (a) together and (b) in Wales - if not actually in Roath. It was so close to the birth of George. Having said that I have only found one census where the name was not mis-transcribed (which doesn't help the cause any)

I was hoping that Mary Jane Taylor would be the key having a different name and being born in Plymouth but I can't find her anywhere. Even resorted to the possibility that she did indeed visit her father's parents......

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 29 Nov 2012 15:25

is there a possibility they were in this area in 1861 - known area missing from census

4041 Glamorganshire Cardiff St Nicholas (3) Welsh St Donats

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 18:12

Nothing is impossible Ann but in 1860 when they married they were in Cardiff St John and in 1861 for George's birth in Roath. Both these are in the city centre while Cardiff St Nicholas is on the outer limits now (and probably was more so then).

GUT feeling says they MUST be in Roath somewhere but they are either VERY mis-transcribed or somehow they were missed out :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 29 Nov 2012 18:52

Hi Sue in Leeds (I'm a Leeds supporter :-).....

Birth certificate - John is a gardener!

As indeed he is on marriage certificate.

So it seems he became a publican when my great great grandfather, Thomas, Mary's father bought the Crwys Hotel and let them run it.

So - without having the will - it seems galling that HE left nearly £10k initially administration with will to Mary AS LONG AS SHE REMAINED A WIDOW. And the when she died she left less than £1000 and administration was handed to her son.

I am waiting for Thomas' will (and have been for nearly two months)

 Sue In Yorkshire.

Sue In Yorkshire. Report 1 Dec 2012 00:14

Hi Jude,

Well I have looked at all the 1861 censuses in Wales for Mary and John Davie/Davies.
And I am sorry to say that I haven't found them..

Also tried tracing John's Brother George to see if he was anywhere in 1861 and he is also missing.

George was married in 1869 to a Jane Beer born 1833,they were married at the Parish Church of St Mary the Virgin Cardiff.Both were 36.

Jane Died in Sept qtr 1870 age 38 in Cardiff,they have her surname down as Davies.

Then George started moving around the country after 1871 census as he was living with Jane's mother and step father.

Can't find George/John Davie's mother and stepfather in 1861 census anywhere in Wales.

The only other person I have found is Jane's Sister Isabella Matilda Beer in 1861 she was a servant for a Joseoh Huckwell born 1805 Standlake Oxfordshire.


1861 census transcription details for: Directors Registry, Ely Road, Llandaff
Print Close
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 4038
Folio: 11
Page: 16
Reg. District: Cardiff
Sub District: 2 Cardiff
Parish: Llandaff
Enum. District: 21
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Llandaff
Address: Directors Registry, Ely Road, Llandaff
County: Glamorganshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
HUCKWELL, Joseph Head Married M 56 1805 ...
Standlake, Oxfordshire
HUCKWELL, Charlotte Wife Married F 54 1807
Whitchurch, Glamorganshire
STEPHENS, Edward Brother In Law Unmarried M 71 1790 Retired Solicitor
Whitchurch, Glamorganshire
STEPHENS, Charlotte Sarah Niece F 9 1852 Farmers Daughter
..., Glamorganshire
>>>>>>BEER, Isabella M Servant Unmarried F 22 1839 House Servant
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SILLICK, Phillis Servant Unmarried F 17 1844 House Servant
Taunton, Somerset
MILFORD, Robert Servant Married M 38 1823 Groom & Gardener
Butterstone, Somerset
MILFORD, Ann Servant Married F 36 1825 Cook & Dairy Maid
Bleadon, Somerset


Then she marries in 1862 to Thomas Arnott..


Civil registration event: Marriage

Name: BEER, Isabella Matilda
Registration district: [?] Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire
Year of registration: 1862
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 11A
Page no: [?] 331
MarriageFinder��:
[?] Isabella Matilda Beer married one of the following people Transcript
>>>>>>>>>ARNOTT, Thomas VIEW
SPINKS, Henry VIEW

DAVIES, Deborah VIEW



They have 2 children,,


Civil registration event: Birth

Name: ARNOTT, Isabella Matilda
Registration district: [?] Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire
Year of registration: 1865
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume no:[?]11A
Page no:[?]231



Margaret E Arnott born 1868..
Sorry can't find the exact birth details.
But I have founf them all Thomas,Isabella and Isabella M and Margaret in the passenger list going to USA.




passenger transcript details


Name: Margaet E ARNOTT
Date of departure: 12 July 1890
Port of departure: Liverpool
Passenger destination port: New York, USA
Passenger destination: New York, USA

Date of Birth: 1868 (calculated from age)
Age: 22
Marital status: Single
Sex: Female
Occupation: Spinst
Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 12





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -

Isabella ARNOTT Page 2 of 12 View transcript
Isabella M ARNOTT Page 2 of 12 View transcript
Thos ARNOTT Page 2 of 12 View transcript



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ship:
Official Number:
Master's name:
Steamship Line:
Where bound:
Square feet:
Registered tonnage:
Passengers on voyage:
CITY OF ROME

Young
Anchor Line Of United States Mail Steamships
New York, USA
17144
3548
346


I think the E Margaret had as a second name was for Eliza after her grandmother on her mother's side.



Sorry I couldn't find any of the families.

Sue

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 7 Dec 2012 07:49

Many thanks to Sue for her Sterling efforts. It is such a mystery...not only can John Mary and Mary not be found all of his family are missing too!

To update on Samuel Taylor family (I have put this on the thread on the genealogy chat board to close that off)

I have finally bought - and received- Mary's marriage certificate to Samuel

So for all who helped a year ago...

Samuel's father was John which fits the first 1841 census Sue posted on here. He states 26 years old at marriage 26 March 1851 which fits with an 1824 birth...but not with the 1823 christening that Lancashire Ann has posted!

But the 1823 christening fits with the father while the 1824 christening Ann also found does not aaaaaaaghhh!!

Occupation appears to be silk weaver.

But it has to be correct so maybe he wasn't actually sure of how old he actually was. I'll now update my tree with his family!

I won't mark the thread as answered JUST IN CASE a miracle does happen for Christmas :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 8 Dec 2012 19:19

In 1871 census Mary's parents Thomas and Jane are living at Spring Gardens in Roath - which is where I think Mary was living at the time of the census in 1861. It is district 28a. In 1861 there are only districts 26 and 27. I have done basic search on FMP and none of the streets in that area Helen Street, Theodora Street, Harold street Helen Street are found. Is this a known missing area?

Jude

patchem

patchem Report 12 Dec 2012 07:10

Google search for known missing areas?

Definitely bad year:
'There are missing pages in all censuses but 1861 has suffered most, with entire pieces missing. You can confirm missing pieces (for 1861) in Discovery, our catalogue by searching on keyword 'missing' and series code 'RG 9'.'

as from
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/census-returns.htm

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 12 Dec 2012 08:20

well Roath is not listed as missing. It was obviously a time of growth. In 1851 only one district. In 1871 9 districts

So two listed in 1861....perhaps the street wasn't counted as Roath then?

Will keep on trying........

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 12 Dec 2012 13:47

I have an area which I am sure is missing for 1861 even though the actual area is not in the list. I have trawled through what there is of the area and NONE of my families appear! So presumably it is just parts of the area that are missing. Perhaps yours is similar.

 Sue In Yorkshire.

Sue In Yorkshire. Report 13 Dec 2012 17:18

Jude,
Have you thought of getting in touch with Glamorgan records office to see if they have got all 1861 census for Spring Gardens and John street..

You could always ask if they could find John and Mary Davie in the census..

Sue

Edit,,, site for the glamorgan records office..

http://www.ancestor-search.info/CRO-Glamorgan.htm

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 Dec 2012 11:06

Santa Sue - thanks for the link will give it a go!

Jude