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Enie D N Forder

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


Lucy Report 2 Dec 2011 23:00

I am trying to work out where the Carash fits into this

Enies mum and dad were

Ruby and Dudley Gordon

Rubys Mum and Dad were Ruby Dorothy Carash and ?

Ruby Dorothy Carash mum and dad were

Emma Georgina Sheffield (Carsh) and ?

Cant put the carash in no where can fit the garner and Sheffield in but not the Carash who is the Man with the Name Carsh?

Ive just ordered Ruby Dorothy Carash Birth Certifiacte 1895 Croydin 2a 241 Apr,May,June to give some ideas, i do want to find as much information on this lady as i have found a 1911 of what i think is her stating she was an actress at 16 in Croydon and i also know she married Gustav H N De Becker later in life in 1935 wandsworth, we believe this man to be wealthy and of status but i dont know how to check this any ideas please?


MaureeninNY Report 3 Dec 2011 02:40

Lucy-you're doing as well as you can with this lot!!

Just keep in mind that some -er-"paternity issues" might never be solved.

Did anyone send you the image for Cedric T J Carash's marriage?
Emma Georgina's (now she's Caplin!) signature is pretty identifiable. (you can compare it with the marriage scan that Mel sent,right?).

Also-and this is more to the "tandem workers" out there...
;-) ;-)

Did anyone notice on the Garner/Carash marriage cert-the witness Jane Sophia Edwards? She's gotta be the Jane Sophia Sheffield (sister of Emma G)who married Edward Dash in 1884?? Again...same signature.

I've tried to find her again and again just in case one of that lot is with her. Nada.



SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2011 05:28


it's really frustrating

someone turns up once ................ on a certificate either as a bride/groom/baby or witness or father

and then never again.

I mean, Micklewhite Carash should be easy to find. Shouldn't he??????????

But I must admit, that I had not noticed Jane Sophia Edwards!



MaureeninNY Report 3 Dec 2011 06:29

Oh lord-

It's Micklewright,Syls! (on that baptism for Claud Albert-poor wee one).
Much easier to find isn't he?.....:-D

I have to admit I was looking for Mic*thwait* a few too may times.

And then Cedric pops up with "Henry Thomas" as his father.

All engineers.of course!!

Ah well.

I've sent Lucy scans of the other marriage certs.

Maureen <3


SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2011 06:47

and I was remembering from memory, instead of checking the spelling. ..... grrrrrrrrrrrr

you really would think he would be easy

but he pops up that once, and then that is it!

but then a couple of the children have the surname Micklewright, and then become Carash

but even those with distinctive forenames are impossible to find!

ah well

almost my bedtime!

sylvia <3


MaureeninNY Report 3 Dec 2011 07:15

Just as a PS before I lose the thought again.

Lucy-have you been in Search Trees and tried to contact the other CARASH researchers??

Sorry to all if this has been suggested before.



Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 12:30


I have not done search trees i will do that, may help a bit

Do we think Carash has come from another surname and has just been taking through the generations.

Defintly people pop up then disappear maybe alot of name changing has gone,

Thanks for sending those certificates i am just going to check these out and all above information,

Get it all written down and fitted in

Thanks everyone to your help



Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 15:58

Just to recap on Emma Georgian Sheffield

Who was her mother and father

Have i got this right

Born as sheffield re-married to Carash,
then to someone Micklewright
then to William Henry XVI in 15th April 1906 in brixton aged 38, he was a pattern maker
then to someone Caplin

Does this sound about right can we fill in the other 3 gentleman, only got one marriage struggling to get other 3 men

Any help in clarifying this?

Many thanks


Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 20:19



chrissiex Report 3 Dec 2011 20:26

I was reading here a few days ago and hesitating to leap in ... ;)

I don't think "Micklewright Carash" was a person ... I think someone fudged the surname of the father because the parents were not married

I suspect the mother was Carash and the father's surname was Micklewright

I looked around a bit in censuses to see whether there were any Micklewrights in the right vicinity at the right time but didn't see anybody as I recall

I thought it might be useful to see the Sheffield household in 1881, Emma Georgina is the only daughter really old enough to be the mother of the grandchild living with her parents in 1901 and other children born in the mid 1890s

Civil parish: Clapham
Registration district: Wandsworth

Joseph Sheffield 43 fishmonger
Jane Sheffield 40
Emma G. Sheffield 13
Robert D. Sheffield 11
William E. Sheffield 9
James A. Sheffield 4
Margaret G. Sheffield 4
Esther L. Sheffield 2 (later Hester)
Mary A. Sheffield 17

when she married in 1906

Marriages Jun 1906
Carash Emma Georgina Lambeth 1d 455
GARNER William Henry Lambeth 1d 455

I doubt that she had actually been married before ... are you waiting for certificates still ?

I'm confused though ... Maureen says

Jane Sophia Sheffield (sister of Emma G) who married Edward Dash in 1884??

in 1871 the only children in the household I think are Emma and Robert ... where is Jane Sophia in 1871? and how do we know she is Emma's sister ...

Births Dec 1863
SHEFFIELD Jane Sophia Newington 1d 232

Marriages Dec 1884
Dash Edward St. Saviour 1d 104
Sheffield Jane Sophia St Saviour 1d 104

this is her in 1871 ? but I have no sub to see the details

Name: Jane S Sheffield
Birth: abt 1864 - city, Surrey, England
Residence: 1871 - city, Surrey, England

Dash and Carash though, some resemblance

Ruby Dorothy Constance ( I forgot to check the actual name in 1911 ) was an actress as I recall ... Carash may simply be a stage name of some sort if there was theatre in the family ...


Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 21:03

Oh i see but Ruby Dorothy constance Carashs mum Emma also used the name Carash,

So do we think that Emma was born sheffield used Cararsh as a stage name say the married Wiilam garner strange how her bdaughter ruby would use it as her maiden name, would have thought she would have used sheffield think thats where we all are getting confused

So are we discounting the Micklewright from this

I have ordered Ruby Dorothys birth certficate hopefully this will give some more clues....


chrissiex Report 3 Dec 2011 21:09

there are 18 people on facebook named Carash :-)

in some cases the name seems to be of middle eastern origin for example but most are not ... there is a lawyer in California named Carash ... some of the facebook names can be seen in the GRO births index, born in Wiltshire or Hampshire

I had certainly wondered too whether you hadn't contacted people with Carash in their trees here at genesreunited

Cedric J Carash born 1921 was the son of Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash and he ( Cedric 1921 ) married in 1945 in Swindon so some of the people you see in trees born after that are grandchildren of Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash

others are children of a Carash and Ritchings marriage ( you will see them if you just search for all Carash events at freebmd, sometimes it is spelled Richens ) and that marriage was a Peter Carash born in 1924 also a son of Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash


Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 21:14

i have contacted people on here with names carash but no response as of yet, dont know how often people check there messages on here

Also confused with cedric who is he realted to, i thought emmas dad was Joesph sheffield bit confused?


chrissiex Report 3 Dec 2011 21:24

Lucy I see from the thread you have been confused about Cedric Thomas Joseph all along and asked that several times ... and nobody has been able to answer that question :-)

the thing is that with only a handful of people ever named Carash ... everyone is trying to investigate -anyone- with that name who it seems -must- be related somehow

the Cedric T J Carash line is the other one that is known to have existed ... as I said go to freebd and just search for the surname Carash with no other details ... he magically appears in 1921 and marries, has three children, dies in 1931, his children Cedric, Peter and Dianna R ( who becomes Rita D ) go on to marry as well

they are the only other Carashes ... Cedric TJ married in Camberwell and died in Southwark ... he has to be related !

is his marriage certificate one of the things you have sent for ? one wonders what his father's name might be shown as

he was 39 years old when he died in 1931 ... so he was born in early 1892 or late 1891 ...

and really that has got to make him Cedric Sheffield in 1901 aged 8 living with Joseph and Jane Sheffield ... who are Emma Georgina Sheffield/Cardash's parents ...

oh and Emma Georgina Sheffield/Carash etc was the witness at Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash's marriage so of course they are related ! and she seems to be his mum, no ?


chrissiex Report 3 Dec 2011 21:36

as I said some of the ... hm, probably great-grandchildren, maybe great-great-grandhilcren of Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash have facebook pages ... that would probably be the easiest way to contact the family

look for Tracy, Melanie and Brendan, I think they are probably all siblings


Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 21:37

Oh so he could be her brother ok got it thanks for answering the question did not know where to fit him in I looked on free bmds n done the search for carash and a few people came up yer that must be him :-D


chrissiex Report 3 Dec 2011 21:44

he should be the brother of Ruby Dorothy Carash 1895 known as Garner, yes, that is what I understand from everything people have found here

I would really contact the people through facebook, you are much more likely to reach them that way than from trees here because so many people no longer get their messages here

just say that your ( is it great-grandmother ? ) is Ruby Carash born 1895 and you think her brother was Cedric Carash born around 1892 and you would love to know more about their mother or any family info they may have :-)


Lucy Report 3 Dec 2011 21:53

I will defintly do that may come up with some joy :-)


rootgatherer Report 4 Dec 2011 11:07

To Summarise
Marriages Dec 1939
Forder John J Gordon Camberwell 1d 2420
Gordon Ruby G Forder Camberwell 1d 2420

Births Dec 1914 GORDON Ruby G Carash Lambeth 1d 745
No Gordon / Carash marriage found. Carash being an unusual surname Flick posted this marriage.
Marriages Jun 1906
Carash Emma Georgina Lambeth 1d 455
GARNER William Henry Lambeth 1d 455
Details of which are
William Henry Garner, 64, Widower, Pattern Maker, 23 Ballater Road Acre Lane, f. William Garner dec.
Emma Carash, 38, Widow,23 Ballater Rd., f. Joseph Sheffield, Poulterer

Witnesses Joseph Sheffield and Jane Sophia Edwards.
So that tells us that “widow” Carash was born as a Sheffield.
Her Birth: Births March 1868 Sheffield, Emma Georgina Newington, 1d 226
In 1891 she is living with her parents and siblings in Croydon.
Name: Emma G Sheffield
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joseph Sheffield
Mother's Name: Jane Sheffield
Gender: Female
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
No Sheffield / Carash marriage has been found.


rootgatherer Report 4 Dec 2011 11:07

In 1919 Emma Georgina Caplin is one of the witnesses to this marriage
Name: Cedric Thomas Joseph Carash
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Spouse Name: Agnes Kilminster
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Dec 1919
Parish: East Dulwich St John the Evangelist
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Henry Thomas Carash
Spouse Father Name: John Kilminster
Register Type: Parish Register
In fact at that time she may have been known as Caplin but legally didn’t become Caplin until 1924

Marriages Dec 1924
Caplin Henry Garner Camberwell 1d 1635
GARNER Emma G Caplin Camberwell 1d 1635

The Carash births found
Births Jun 1895 Carash Ruby Dorothy Croydon 2a 241 – Who is Ruby Dorothy Constance Garner on the 1911 census (having taken her step father’s surname)
Births Mar 1897 Carash Claude Albert M Lambeth 1d 531
Deaths Mar 1897 CARASH Claude Albert M 0 Lambeth 1d 303
There are 2 Carash deaths of children whose births have been registered Micklewright. They were twins?
Births Jun 1894
Micklewright Grace Isla Fulham 1a 254
Micklewright Reginald Leonard Fulham 1a 254
Deaths Dec 1894 CARASH Reginald Leonard M 0 Croydon 2a 149
Deaths Mar 1895 Carash Grace Isla M 1 Croydon 2a 236
So it appears that only 2 of Emma Georgina’s children lived to adulthood – Ruby and Cedric.
The Carash BMDs after 1919 (apart from Ruby’s marriage in 1935) all seem to stem from Cedric. In 1901 Cedric is on the census with the surname Sheffield. We haven’t yet found a birth for Cedric either as Carash or Sheffield or even Micklewright!