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Dales from Deptford - Brickwall

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Catherine

Catherine Report 10 Feb 2012 03:09

I have Jane Ruth Curby Dale being baptised 3 Jun 1810 at Saint Paul, Deptford, London, England. Her parents are John Dale and Ann. They lived in King St. John was a Labourer. There was another possible daughter born, Ann Charlotte bapt. 13 Aug 1815 in the same church. Then I hit the brick wall. I can find no other information on John and Ann. They are not in any of the census or any other records I have looked at.
I thought I had broken through the brick wall and thought that Ann was an Ann Gowing. I found this John and Ann in the census and was able to trace Ann Gowing's line back many generations only to find out that Ann Gowing had married her John Dale 7 years after my Jane Dale was born. So the brick wall became even more solid than ever.
If anyone could shed any light on my Dales I would be very happy. The slightest clue would be much appreciated.
Thankyou in advance for any help.

Regards,
Catherine

Lynski

Lynski Report 10 Feb 2012 03:24

Have you tried Search Trees on this site?

If you find a possible match you can contact the tree owner to see if you have a connection.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 10 Feb 2012 04:13

I note that one Public Family Tree on ancestry has Jane Ruth Curby Dale as the child of Francis Dale and Ruth Curby, and born in Salisbury, Wiltshire, baptised in 1810 St Paul's Deptford

This tree then has her marrying Henry Payne in 1832, Paddington, London

Henry Payne dying in 18 July 1833, Smallpox Hospital, London

and then marrying Thomas Lanagan 4 April 1842, Rotherwood, NSW


Another tree has Jane born 1810 in Hampshire and baptised at St Paul's Deptford, parents John Dale and Ann Gowig

Marrying Henry Payne 28 Oct 1832, St John, Paddington,
Marriage witnessed by Mary Ann Gowan




Certainly having a mother called Ruth Curby makes sense of her name!





sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 10 Feb 2012 04:22

beta.family search has got her name as Jane Ruth Kirby Dale in their version of the Parish Register


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Jane Ruth Kirby Dale

Name: Jane Ruth Kirby Dale
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 03 Jun 1810
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT PAUL,DEPTFORD,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 08 May 1810
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Dale
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Ann
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P00630-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 254588
Reference Number:







I'm only raising these different versions, because we do need to know correct spelling in order to find further information.





sylvia

Susan

Susan Report 10 Feb 2012 07:01

London, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
about Janes Ruth Haiby Dale Name: Janes Ruth Haiby Dale
[Jane Ruth Kirby Dale]
[Jane Ruth Curby Dale]
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1810
Parish: St Paul, Deptford
County: Kent
Borough: Lewisham
Parent(s): John Dale,
Ann Dale
Record Type: Baptism
Register Type: Parish Register


Catherine

Catherine Report 11 Feb 2012 21:58

Thanks for the replies.
Yes Lynski I have search the trees on this sites a number of time but there is nothing new.

Sylvia, I find your reply very interesting. Some of the information is correct according to my documents and others I am not sure about.
I have the baptismal entry for Jane Ruth Kirby Dale and it gives the parents as John and Ann bapt 3 Jun 1810 St Paul, Deptford as you have also found on Family Search. I don't have a subscription to ancestry so I am unable to contact that person to see where the Frances Dale and Ruth Curby came from but I don't think that is correct. Jane did first marry Henry Payne and then Thomas Lanagan so all of that info is correct.
I did not have the death date for Henry Payne before so that could be him but when Jane came to Australia in 1835 she was refered to as married not widowed and having one child.
The tree that has her parents as John Dale and Ann Gowing probably was taken from my research mistake before I realised it was wrong.

A mother called Ruth Curby might make sense but there are no documents that say that that is her mothers name.

Jane's third name is sometimes shown as Kirby or Curby but when you see Jane Ruth Kirby or Curby Dale or other minor variations it is my ancestor.

Thankyou everyone for your help.

Cheers,
Catherine

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 12 Feb 2012 07:30

Name: Henry Ryner
[Henry Payne]
[Henry Payne]
Spouse Name: Jane Dale
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 28 Oct 1832)
Parish: Paddington St John
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Parish Register

(another witness, looks like John?, could be same as Mary Ann underneath, not easy to read)...

Chris :)


Name: Ann Charlotte Dale
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1815
Baptism Date: 13 Aug 1815
Father's Name: John Dale (Mariner)
Mother's Name: Ann Dale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Deptford St Paul
Borough: Lewisham
Register Type: Parish Registers

(address given as, Butchers Row, St. Nicholas)


Name: Henry Payne
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1833
Burial Date: 18 Jul 1833
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register

(abode given, Smallpox Hospital)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 12 Feb 2012 08:39

There are loads of trees with her on a. And the baptismal record detailed above by Susan has the original image on one and it is definitely John and Ann of King Street I think...

One tree in particular has loads on her. Seems she was tried at Old Bailey and sent to Australia as a convict after Henry's death. That particular tree has John and Ann Gowing as her parents and John born Norfolk and Ann born Suffolk in censuses in Chelsea. But as you say they did not marry until 1817 and there are children Ann and Charlotte after the marriage...and no death for Charlotte Ann. So it is possible that there are two John and Ann Dales... :-(

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 12 Feb 2012 11:37

Catherine, if you don't have a sub to ancestry then you can register for free with their spin-off site Mundia. http://www.mundia.com/gb/

You can search and view public Ancestry trees and contact the tree owners.

Catherine

Catherine Report 13 Feb 2012 02:12

HeyJudeB4Beatles thanks for your reply. Yes I have alot of info on Jane Ruth Kirby Dale which I have shared with alot of people and I did also share my big mistake in my research making her parents John Dale and Ann Gowing before I found that couple's marriage. That mistake has spread beyond the people I sent it to as I also had it on a home page I had. There are a number of John and and Dales who could possibly be them but I have just got no way of knowing. I have alot of info on Jane but so little to go on for her parents.
A possible marriage for her parents are a John Dale of Holborn, London who married and an Ann Day of Bromley, Kent who was a widow. They married in 1793. But with the mistake I made linking Jane to John Dale and Ann Gowing I am reluctant to make her mother Ann Day as there is no further evidence to say it is correct. :-S


Chris Ho Thanks for your help. I do have a fuzzy copy of Jane Dale and Henry Payne's marriage entry. The surnames for the witnesses are hard to read but neither stand out as being a possible relative. Jane was a house maid and a nurse maid so they could have been people she was working with. For Ann Charlotte Dale I found a Butchers Row on the other side of the river near Stepney. I am not sure if it is the same one or not.


Marie Celeste Thankyou so much for this site I shall register now. :-)

Catherine

Catherine Report 23 Mar 2013 05:29

I now have another candidate for the parents of Jane Ruth Kirby Dale.

I have found a John and Mary Dale in the right area which I had dismissed earlier. They were living in Greewich close to Deptford, but this John is a Grocer later becoming a Chandler not a sailor as shown on Jane's death certificate. But he could have originally been a sailor later staying on land and becoming a grocer. They had their grandson living with them. I found that his mother was Mary Elizabeth Dale b 1813 which puts her birth in between Jane (1810) and Ann Charlotte (1815). Looking at this couple I found a marriage for a John Thickett Dale and a Mary Ann Dobinson. ( I have not as yet found any Thicketts in Johns line either) Could these be Jane parents? After jumping to conclusions last time I am trying to be more careful this time. They were married 5 months after Jane was baptised. Looking at what I have researched for their tree there are no Janes, Ruths or Curbys that they might have named her after. But Jane did name one of her daughters Mary not Ann. There are many pros and cons for this couple to be Jane's parents. I would be interested in your opinion.

Thanks in advance for your opinions and help.

Cheers,
Catherine


Name:John Thickett Dale
Spouse's Name:Mary Ann Dobinson
Event Date:28 Oct 1810
Event Place:Saint Paul,Deptford,Kent,England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number:M00630-1

Baptized May 1810
Dale - Jane Ruth Kirby D of John & Ann King St. Labr
IGI Index
Name: DALE, Jane Ruth Kirby
Sex: F
Event: Christening
3 Jun 1810
Saint Paul, Deptford, London, England
Father: John Dale
Mother: Ann

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 23 Mar 2013 10:20

Catherine, Can I ask you which document Jane uses the names Jane Ruth Curby on please. And how does she spell it on that document?

Gins

Gins Report 23 Mar 2013 13:10

For ref

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Mary Ann Dobinson
Spouse Name: John Therkettle ....Dale
Record Type: Banns
Event Date: 28 Oct 1810
Parish: Deptford St Paul
Borough: Lewisham
Register Type: Parish Register

Wit: George Parish & John Garrett


I take it that this is the grandson you mention


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Benjamin John Dale Clothier Plumber
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Age: 28
Spouse Name: Maria Upton
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 26 Oct 1865
Parish: St John's Wood St Mark
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Benjamin Clothier Joiner
Spouse Father Name: William Upton Joiner
Register Type: Parish Register

Catherine

Catherine Report 23 Mar 2013 22:50

ChristinaS, On Jane's baptismal entry her name is Jane Ruth Kirby Dale and on her death certificate and headstone it is Jane Ruth Curby Lanagan. On other documents it does not give her middle names.

Gins, Thanks for the references. Yes they are the couple and the grandson I am referring to. In your opinion do you think that John Dale and Mary Ann Dobinson could be my Jane's parents given the evidence above?

Catherine

Catherine Report 1 Aug 2013 01:05

Update on my brick wall.
The Greenwich Dales are not John Thirkettle Dale and Mary Ann Dobinson.

Another direction in my research had led me to find another John Dale. My John & Ann Dale had a 2nd daughter. When she was bapt. John's occupation was given as Mariner. I have found the will of a John Dale Boatswain in the Royal Navy who is then shown in another document as having died 5 Jul 1836. His wife and then widow was a Maria Ann Dale. This, I think may possibly be then John Dale and Mary Ann Dobinson. In the will she is living in Hampshire and then in the 2nd document Devon. I have not been able to find Maria Ann in the 1841 census.
What do you think? Could this be John Dale and Mary Ann Dobinson and could they in turn be my John and Ann? There are no dates or ages to confirm that it was John Thirkettle Dale or Mary Ann Dobinson and the only link with my John and Ann is the occupation. There is no link to Deptford but I was told early in my research that Jane was born in Hampshire. Are these minor links enough to say this is my John and Ann?
I look forward to any feedback.

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 1 Aug 2013 10:00

Another possibility is that this couple were only in Deptford for a short time, waiting for a beth on a boat to emigrate.

I have been contacted several times about a young girl whose same is identical to one in my tree who was only in Deptford for 1 census then emigrated to Oz.

Now I know that this girl is not mine as mine never married and I have photos of her with my g/grandfather who she nursed, I even have her death certificate and her death was registered by her brother.

Also there was the St. Saviours workhouse so they could have been poor enough to end up there and once they came out moved away from the area.