Find Ancestors

My grandmother did not have her birth certificate until many years later when she wanted to apply for a passport.

My grandfather on the otherside married in 1929 and he said he was three years younger....so if a birth cert was needed surely that would have been noticed? He stuck to that age until he died so it wasn't a mistake.

I cannot remember producing one when I married.....but maybe I did?

Quick summary

We found Charlotte's "lover" http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1324681

We know where her only sister. Mary Irvine b1878 was in 1901 + 1911

don't know if she kept touch with Charlotte after Maisie's birth dec 1899
Mary is trustee of their father John Robert's will in 1906
she is refered to as "one of the next of kin"
This implies that if can't find her only sibling she's entitled to the money it doesn't imply automatic disinheritance of Lottie from John ... if Mary knows where her neiceMaisie is it gives her the option of contributing to her upkeep....!

Maisie was a "boarder" in 1901 with the Hollis family ..this can imply payments
If Geo Fellman kept his legal obligation to pay maintenace til Maisie was 12yrs old maybe Charlotte got him to transfer his payments directly to the Halliis adoptive family

like Charlotte + GeoJ Fellmanin 1900 the Hallis family have Tailor /draper/seamstress professions and could have worked with Charlotte in the late 1890's .

They knew Maisie's baptised middle name so may have known who Charlotte married, where she lived after 1924
+ Knew that Geo.fellman had moved to Wales btwn 1901+1911and died there in 1924
.
My aunt believes Maisie thought her mother was Edith Hallis who died when she was 6 ...so finding she was a Fellman/Roberts by birth would have been a shock .

\my thread about Charlotte's grandfather + his children is

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1339802

also for interest
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1334365

my thread ; general chat about affiliation orders

I've added an updated edit to this thread
so excited about recent successes with birth father may try a few more charlotte Robert searches.

a marriage in llandinio Montgomery 12.5.1902 was suggested

Charlotte Roberts daughter of John to James Richard Hughes age 26 lab son of william lab

witness is John Roberts

There is also this birth that would match the age of the Charlotte Roberts marriage same area

Births Sep 1882 (>99%)
Roberts Charlotte Llanfyllin 11b 219

Marriages Jun 1902 (>99%)
Hughes James Richard Llanfyllin 11b 343
Roberts Charlotte Llanfyllin 11b 343

thanks Jax ...so unlikely to be our Charlotte Roberts

Update.Still looking for Lottie

Some of the Charlotte's definitely ruled out are because of multiple factors.
Married names
Charlotte Hughes llandidno Found With her mother in 1891
charlotte Prescott too old ..wrong birthplace

Any with middle names are unlikely

Any with brothers sisters or parents in 1901 not ours because Charlotte's only sis and father were still at family address in 1901

Any with parents still living after 1909

Still POSSIBLE

The single Charlotte Roberts at a dressmakers shop in Conway. 1911
Birthplace Liverpool
Tho this may be the Charlotte Elinor Roberts B 1881 Liverpool

Lottie Pearcy actress b1881 Birkenhead
maiden name unknown
Son or stepson Miles

No further info on them

After all this time it's been pointed out that we don't have Charlotte's exact birth date and once we had baptism details assumed birthdate was July too

But its likely to have been April before the 1881 census

Rookie mistake as maybe with exact birthdate we can search for Charlotte ?maiden name Roberts on the 1939 register

So that's our next move

(just to add below for info., not sure which Census you have found with her, or where!)

Chris :)

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Percy Myles William C Caistor 7a 621


1901 (Find My Past)
Thomas Carbutt Head Married Male 41 1860 Glass Bottle Maker Kippax, Yorkshire, England
Mary J Carbutt Wife Married Female 42 1859 - Kirkstead, Lincolnshire, England
A C Percy Visitor Married Male 38 1863 Comedian Lincolnshire, England
Myles Percy Visitor Single Male 6 1895 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Lottie Percy Visitor Married Female 19 1882 Comedienne Birkenhead, Cheshire,
H Woodin Visitor Married Male 24 1877 Comedian London, Middlesex, England
Madge Woodin Visitor Married Female 22 1879 Comedienne At Sea
Street Albion Street
Parish Castleford
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding) Municipal ward Carlton
Registration district Pontefract
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 4304
Folio 74
Page 7


http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(Birkenhead Births covered on above, added below)


Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1881

ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead Wirral BIR/124/92


Births Jun 1881 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead 8a 518


(or, if you mean below, not sure where Baptism details are, without reading all through!)


Births Dec 1881 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Ellinor Liverpool 8b 21

Edits

Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)

(from image above, Baptism 1881 3rd July, Parents, John & Caroline. Abode, 27 Greenfield Street Birkenhead. Father occ. Boiler Maker)


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.18

(and Myles covered on above!, all a bit too much everywhere to keep up with!)


(and because of name, below, if related)

County Lincolnshire
Place Crowle
Church name St Oswald
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 712
Burial date 15 May 1898
Person age 67
Burial person forename Miles
Burial person surname PEARCEY
Burial person abode Crowle

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above link)


Marriages Sep 1868 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Almey Ann Thorne 9c 689
Peacey Miles Thorne 9c 689

Hi Chris
yes it is long and complicated

Yes the baptism with parents john roberts =caroline is correct

the birth of Charlotte Elinor roberts is definitely ruled out .

Of course my mother did obtain a birth cert at start of her research but it was the wrong Charlotte born 1877

I'll get Brigid to triple check refs before sending for the one you've given

We'd love our Lottie to have become a comedien but didn't find what became of Lottie Pearcy

Bit confused by the death you posted of Miles Pearcy in 1898
are you saying that would be her stepson Myles grandfather ? I'll go and reread the roots thread . Its been getting a lot of attention and has over 17000 views

Thanks a lot ..

EDIT. the 19 year old Lottie Percy on the 1901 census
is recorded as married
But not necessarily to the 38 year old A.C Pearcy...

They are both boarders
But relationship to each other and to 6 year old Myles Percy is not given
Could be a sister-in law or cousin in the acting line

(below is 1881 Charlotte Birth. Miles Burial was added as an observation of name in Lincs., in case he related to A. C. on 1901)

Chris :)

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1881

ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead Wirral BIR/124/92

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Births Jun 1881 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead 8a 518


(goes with the 1881 Baptism details posted earlier, from below)

Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)


(above also has below Baptism)

Roberts Massie Miriam 1900 (21st March)

(Born 11th Dec 1899, Mother, Lottie Roberts. Abode, Elgin Street)


(which as you already know, is below)


Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1899

ROBERTS Maisie Fellman Birkenhead Wirral BIR/203/53



(not sure why you stated below at beginning of this 'Thread', think you need to change it, for sake of confusion!)

Alisoun Report 18 May 2012 18:09

I challenge anyone to find what happened to my nan,s birthparents
Maisie( fellman )Roberts born dec 1881 to Charlotte Roberts in Birkenhead
Father unnamed



Edits (although I put Elgin Street on Baptism, from image, Brigid has below, just to add I'm not familiar with area!)

"Lottie had her baby at 1 menai st on 12th dec 1899 giving her father's address 29 Edgar st Birkenhead .
On birth certificate nana is Maisie, Fellman (middle name), Roberts and Charlotte is recorded as draper's assistance
she obtained an affiliation order against George Jacob Fellman in jan 1900
The baptism later in march has Lottie Roberts as mother to Massie Miriam Roberts"


Edits (notes in article below date, a review of a drama ' Soldiers of the Queen' mentioning, Herbert Woodin, Madge Palmer (they didn't marry until 1902!) and Arthur C. Percy.

16 March 1901 - The Era - London, London, England


06 October 1894 - The Era - London, London, England

PERCY.-At Grimsby, on Oct. 1st, the wife of Arthur C. Percy (Mabel Percy-Moore), of a son. Both doing well.


15 December 1892 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire

Marriage
CARMICHAEL - WARHURST.-At Derby, the 14th, Thomas Percy Carmichael, of Glasgow (Professionally known Arthur C. Percy), to Mabel Warhurst, granddaughter of the late William Carver, of Nottingham.

To clarify

Elgin street is address given on baptism no number

29 Edgar st is the address Charlotte gave as her residence on Maisie's birth certificate
1 Menai St is given as Maisies place of birth
(her father's adrress)

I think I previously changed the opening to punctuate
and accidently swithced maisie + Charlottes birth years ...

well spotted ..will edit now
the search on Genes started in 1912
when I knew the name of Nana maisie's mother
and potential surname of her father

but didnt know what became of thm after maisies birth in 1899

but

Post from Annette on Rootschat

Arthur Carmichael Percy married Mabel Moore 14/12/1892 in Register Office, Derby - he is shown as 30, Elocutionist, son of Thomas Percy, Commercial Clerk - she aged 21, dau. of Henry Moore, Traveller. The marriage certificate is shown in the divorce papers.

1901 Census shows Mabel - after remarriage - as bc.1876 Nottingham, and there is indeed a birth for a Mabel Warhurst (the other name referred to earlier) in Dec.qtr.1875 Nottingham.

Divorce - petitioned 31/10/1899, Decree Nisi 29/1/1900, Final Decree 3/10/1900 and it was he who was the petitioner - Thomas Percy Carmichael otherwise Arthur Carmichael Percy v. Mabel Carmichael on the grounds of her adultery with Henry Gordon Smith (who she subsequently married). Custody of their son was granted to him.

When Mabel remarried in Dec.1900 Luton there are 4 separate entries for her in names of Mabel Percy, Mabel Warhurst, Mabel Moore and Mabel Carmichael!

Even with details of his supposed father I can still find nothing positive on Arthur (or whatever his name was) pre his marriage to Mabel in 1892.

Whoever 'Lottie' was on 1901 Census (which started all this off) although she is shown as 'married' to Arthur I don't believe any marriage had taken place and hope in a way she isn't Charlotte Roberts because can find nothing on 'Arthur' after 1901 in the 2 surnames we know he used nor a likely Charlotte/Lottie with these names.

Sounds like his whole life was an act and can't believe a word he says!

EXTRA Info from another rootschatter ...Mabels father was not really the one stated on birthbcert

(below added earlier)

Chris :)

06 October 1894 - The Era - London, London, England

PERCY.-At Grimsby, on Oct. 1st, the wife of Arthur C. Percy (Mabel Percy-Moore), of a son. Both doing well.


15 December 1892 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire

Marriage
CARMICHAEL - WARHURST.-At Derby, the 14th, Thomas Percy Carmichael, of Glasgow (Professionally known Arthur C. Percy), to Mabel Warhurst, granddaughter of the late William Carver, of Nottingham.


25 February 1905 - The Era - London, London, England

THEATRICAL GOSSIP.
We regret to record the death of Mr. Thomas Percy Carmichael (professionally known Arthur Cecil Percy), which occurred Epsom on the 16th inst. Mr. Percy was native of Glasgow, and was known as a very painstaking actor in heavy and character parts. His demise at the early age of 43 is deeply regretted by his many friends and acquaintances, especially so by his sorrowing wife. The deceased was interred on Monday at Epsom.



Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
BEN-OLIEL Simie Harriette Birmingham 6d 320
Carmichael Thomas Percy Birmingham 6d 320
FREEMAN Esther Jane Birmingham 6d 320
PINGREFFE Annie Birmingham 6d 320
Stevenson Thomas Birmingham 6d 320


(wouldn't be surprised if number 1 on list was second wife, 'Lottie' made from those names!)

(yes!, Marriage notice in below article. Married on Saturday, 14th September, Simie was Daughter of Rev. M Ben-Oliel, of Kilburn)

19 September 1901 - The Stage - London, London, England

(Herbert Woodin and Madge Palmer never Married until 1902, so Thomas was just before, or after on 1901)


Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CARMICHAEL Coralie Esther P Hampstead 1a 611

(their Daughter, with Simie (Actress), 1911, Mortlake, Surrey)


So, not Charlotte Roberts , will leave you to get that Birth Cert. then!...

Don't know if this has already been posted or not.

Mabel Percy Moore and Arthur C Percy both in paragraph 96.36 of link below, re a stage production called "The Lucky Star", in 1896.

http://tinyurl.com/zmqjwnf

Thanks Chris I too think that Semi Henrietta sounds like a made up name

Here is an article with picture about a name changing Charlotte Roberts in 1907anyone think she looks like nana Maisie from Brigid avatar

The age is out but I think the pictured Charlotte looks older than 20 and is an habitual liar and actress from her past exploits


http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176824/4176826/30/

Thanks argyll not seen that link before .

The story of the actors and baby trafficker s needs a separate thread !

This story is taking on wings over on Rootschat

Several UK births 1901-1907 may not be who they think they are as some of the children buyers or seller's never came forward to join prosecution case as they didn't want their childless ness or illegitimate birth respectively to be revealed

But the birth child of Lottie Roberts /smith Evans/Carmichael??? Could be Nana's half sibling

And the others could lead to present day mitochondrial DNA testers to think tests are wrong because no obvious links with families and the assumption is that mother on trees is the birth mother !

Not to mention that if it is our Charlotte she could have tricked George Jacob into paying for a baby that was really Arthur Percy what'sit

DETECTIVES FIELD DAY

Well she wasn't 'made up', she was below!. If you look at it, you can see how she came to be 'Lottie' for her actress name!...Her age is out on 1901 Census.

Edits, now known not to be Simie on 1901!.

their Daughter was Born in 1902, as posted earlier.


Births Jun 1872 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
BEN-OLIEL Simie Harriette Croydon 2a 219

Chris :)


Anyway, rules out Charlotte Roberts, she is still in hiding...

(lol, for newspapers, I found that George Jacob one for Brigid in the Welsh one also!)


http://tinyurl.com/hnbq7zl

(article about the couple, Leo Selwyn, Lottie Roberts, from google search, and probably more in newspapers also)

(yes, loads!)

18 July 1907 - Wells Journal - Wells, Somerset, England

BABY FARMERS SENTENCED.

...Herbert Smith, aged 21. a conjurer, and Lottie Roberts, aged 20. an actress, pleaded guilty on Monday at Liverpool Assizes to having unlawfully obtained money by false pretences at Liverpool in April and other months. The prisoners ...”

As for reference to Rootschat postings, Brigid has below wrong...(he wasn't born in Cheshire, was Lincolnshire. Cheshire link I posted for 1881 reference, Birth Charlotte Roberts)

cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php
birth has a Percy Myles william C. Caistor
father A.C Percy b Grimsby 1863


And can you give them the Marriage reference 1901 for Simie, and her Birth...(and her in 1911, Surrey)

Also, is one of you ever going to get that 1881 Birth Cert. of Charlotte Roberts, lol...

Chris :)

(and again!, getting confusing having findings here, and then 'over there')


(and yes, age is wrong on below, 43 in Death Notice, Newspaper I posted, and is now also 'over there'!. There is another snippet too, giving age of 42, he had Pneumonia)

Deaths Mar 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carmichael Thomas Percy 58 Epsom 2a 26