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kirton search please. more info come to light

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 27 Sep 2012 13:18

Gosh that's interesting. Do you know where David was "away"...this gets curiouser and curiouser. I saw the other thread with the bankrupcy notice on. But while it was published in the London Gazaette the court was Birmingham so I wondered why they would have to go to London?

Has your contact with the school got any info like when she was enrolled - obviously we know she left around July 1911.

There seems to be an awful lot of subterfuge going on. If David and Emily had a boy he's not registered and they don't declare any children born at all in 1911. Robert's daughter had two daughters born in 1942 and 1947 - I would think they - and their families - are still living. But whether they could shed any light on anything is another thing. The photos on a public tree of him and Emily Rose his second wife are quite charming.

Jude

brummie46

brummie46 Report 27 Sep 2012 16:10

Jude, you have got got me there!!!! - Didnt know that Robert had a daughter i know he remarried and had a son 1914? named walter. I beleive there was a photo about of him with his 2nd wife.
Be very interesting for information regarding his daughter and her daughters also could you possibly forward the info to me please.
Thats great news but as you mentioned possibly they wont be able to through any light on anything.
Shame, young Emily always used to say her family, "you are all i have in my life for i never had any brothers or sisters and never knew who i came from" - and yet only recently foundout that she had a half brother all along, and know it seems she also had a half sister.
Regarding the information from the school she commenced August 1910 and left in 1911 so only a short time there, and it was the school in the same street that they lived in on 1911 census. We dont know the actual age she was when she went to live with the Claxton, but she always said she remembered coming down on a train with a sick lady!!

brummie46

brummie46 Report 27 Sep 2012 17:13

Jude, further to your early message and your details for two daughters, i have myself just delved and came across another member who have these two daughters in his tree and also an Emily Kirton 1900. For some reason i can find him in my contacts to see what info he came back with regarding Emily 1900, but isnt this funny same names all within his tree. I have sent him another message hoping that he can enlighten as to what connection between the two surnames.
Fingers crossed.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 27 Sep 2012 18:27

Have pm'd you the details after - they are not all available in the trees on Ancestry as they are living.

The enrolment at school figures time-wise and of course fits in with Jane being taken ill. She must have known she was not long for this world and took care to make provision for her daughter. Do you have any photos of Emily (younger)?

It is still extremely odd that there is apparently no birth for Emily or for "the boy". I think that it would be a good £9.25 to0 buy either the 1902 birth for Emily Claxton or the death - or maybe both if you are feeling flush!! May not be them but if it was wow!



Jude

brummie46

brummie46 Report 28 Sep 2012 12:00

Jude, yes school time-wise did fit in with jane taken ill. Another story is that young Emily recalls going to London and she had to have a different identity - WHY!!
Now she must have been young for if she was in her teens i would presume she would have rememered some reason for this.
True facts i have researched is that David Claxton was a very close friend of Will Thorne (MP) and wrote and visited the claxtons on a regular basis until david died.
Dont know if any connection there at all - just a guess.
i cant understand why older emily was so hostile to younger emily that is another question, unless she was jelous of her for david really doted onelder emily with jewellery etc., etc., and she had a fine life, so perhaps younger emily was starting to get more attention than her.

brummie46

brummie46 Report 13 Oct 2012 10:31

on 1911 census on noting the address, have liased re the local school in the road and have found that this child attended between 1910 and August 1911 was taken our from school stating returning to Rochester. The fathers name on school records states JAMES - totally baffled now. I have found a marriage for a James.D.Kirton to an Emily in qtr Dec 1901. On my research going back 4 years i purchased a birth cert. for a Mary.E.Kirton qtr March 1902 and on looking at this again found that it stated parents as James and Emily. Could this be a possibility of them been parents?? BUT what was the connection with the Claxtons how was they related.
On census 1881 it looks like James was the son of a William, and Robert was the son of George and from the same area, could the connection be that William and George was brothers, hence meaning the James and Robert would be cousins, then it would mean young Emily would be neice.

brummie46

brummie46 Report 13 Oct 2012 10:33

further to 27th sept to Hey Jude. Other member just automatically put information into their tree without the actual proof.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 13 Oct 2012 15:21

James Davison Kirton was a hairdresser and in 1911

Name: James Davison Kirton
Age in 1911: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Newcastle On Tyne
Civil parish: Westgate
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Street Address: 10 Northcote St Newcastle On Tyne
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Hairdresser
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Registration District Number: 558
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Piece: 30620
Household Members:
Name Age
James Davison Kirton 36
Emily Kirton 34
Mary Kirton 9
James Tait Kirton 2

i.e. with Mary whose birth certificate you have. So don't think she can be your Emily because Emily at that time was miles away in Birmingham.

Have looked to see if I can make any family connection between William and George and therefore George and Robert and I haven't been able to.

I cannot see that James Davison Kirton was ever in the army and so I still think the whole James thing is a red herring.

Have you actually seen the entry in the school records that says James is her father? Or is it here-say? And who actually gave that information? As with any certificate the information is only as good as the informant. And if there was something dodgy going on with Emily's parentage - and there seems there was - then what better thing to do than give a false name for her father?

I did look a bit further into David's army records though. He was in South Africa between 24 November 1899 to 27 June 1900. His next posting was to Bermuda on 28 June 1901 and he came back 09 January 1902. So when he was "away" at the time of the census he was still in the U.K. so should feature on a census - but I can't find him. More pertinently he was in the U.K. (just) at the time that Emily would have been conceived and back at the time she was born (if the dob he gives on his army records is correct). And pertinently again, how did he know that date of birth.....if he was her real father and Jane Woods/Kirton her mother then did he come back from Bermuda because he knew the birth was imminent? It would certainly explain why he was so fond of her and Emily his wife wasn't!

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 13 Oct 2012 15:21

James Davison Kirton was a hairdresser and in 1911

Name: James Davison Kirton
Age in 1911: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Newcastle On Tyne
Civil parish: Westgate
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Street Address: 10 Northcote St Newcastle On Tyne
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Hairdresser
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Registration District Number: 558
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Piece: 30620
Household Members:
Name Age
James Davison Kirton 36
Emily Kirton 34
Mary Kirton 9
James Tait Kirton 2

i.e. with Mary whose birth certificate you have. So don't think she can be your Emily because Emily at that time was miles away in Birmingham.

Have looked to see if I can make any family connection between William and George and therefore George and Robert and I haven't been able to.

I cannot see that James Davison Kirton was ever in the army and so I still think the whole James thing is a red herring.

Have you actually seen the entry in the school records that says James is her father? Or is it here-say? And who actually gave that information? As with any certificate the information is only as good as the informant. And if there was something dodgy going on with Emily's parentage - and there seems there was - then what better thing to do than give a false name for her father?

I did look a bit further into David's army records though. He was in South Africa between 24 November 1899 to 27 June 1900. His next posting was to Bermuda on 28 June 1901 and he came back 09 January 1902. So when he was "away" at the time of the census he was still in the U.K. so should feature on a census - but I can't find him. More pertinently he was in the U.K. (just) at the time that Emily would have been conceived and back at the time she was born (if the dob he gives on his army records is correct). And pertinently again, how did he know that date of birth.....if he was her real father and Jane Woods/Kirton her mother then did he come back from Bermuda because he knew the birth was imminent? It would certainly explain why he was so fond of her and Emily his wife wasn't!

Jude

brummie46

brummie46 Report 14 Oct 2012 12:13

The details of her school details were given to me by someone i actually know who has done the history of this school/birmingham and apparently all on microfish.
I contacted him again and he did mention the name James but said the actual surname is not mentioned.
I take on board re younger emily couldnt be in two places regarding census's, but as we ourselves have come across that it has happened within families to which same named person has been registered in two places.
Was is law that a child had to be registered when born? for although i have worked on BMD for March qtr 1902 and crossed checked most names for any marriages/deaths etc., and as previously mentioned - Mary came up.
It was noted on Davids army records that young emily was born 9.3.02 to which he was requesting further pay but seems it was declined for birth certificate was not forth coming.
Agree that all relevant info possibly relates to Jane been the mother but WHO was the father - was it David??? Robert i presume was in UK at time of conception or was he? for details of his army records states he was injured but was he sent back to UK.n If he was not in the UK and David was - well that could be the answer.
Still hoping for the answer!!!!!

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Oct 2012 14:23

Robert was as we have found him in 1901 census.

I think that registration was definitely law by then

So Mary and Emily are two people - if I get a chance I'll see if I can track Mary through Marriage to death.

It's a mystery that we will probably never solve but Robert (and Emily's) seeming indifference and David's attention all point to Robert having been cuckolded by his friend and brother-in-law ;-)

brummie46

brummie46 Report 14 Oct 2012 18:40

The question is then were was david between June 1900 and June 1901 if he was not away in the army and not on 1901 census

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Oct 2012 19:12

He was somewhere between England and Bermuda :-).....

brummie46

brummie46 Report 19 Oct 2012 08:40

Have checked details etc., and Robert was back in uk for on 1901 census and it seems that David was away in Bermuda from June 1901.So still no further forward.

Still think that there is some connection somewhere between the KIrton/Claxton families. Could she have been born to another member of the Kirton family.
Thinking about it i know that Older Emily and Jane was married to two men away in the war but not children to either sister. if this child turns out not to be Jane and Roberts

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 19 Oct 2012 12:45

Assume that soldiers in 1901 going to Bermuda would go by boat....and don't know how long it would take in those days? Or whether they would show on passenger lists?

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 19 Oct 2012 18:11

So this is probably what he was doing in Bermuda

Port's Island Hospital was built for Boer War prisoners-of-war. More than 4,500 South African prisoners of war (men and boys) arrived on HM ships and were transported to exile on various islands in Bermuda from 1901 to 1902. Bermuda was one of the places selected as a prisoner-of-war-camp for the Boers because of its distance from South Africa. The Boer War Cemetery in Bermuda was built by Boer prisoners.

brummie46

brummie46 Report 18 Mar 2013 17:27

Can i please ask this question??
regarding the census's infilling of forms etc., are all census's completed on exactly the same date, for have taken on board the comments that emily kirton could not be in two places at once on 1911 census.
1. Emily kirton (neice staying with Claxton) Clifton Rd. Birmingham
2. Emily kirton taken out of school by father James. (obtained birth cert., showing a Mary Kirton daughter of James and Emily kirton) but 1911 census states that Mary was with parents James and Emily.
Could it be possible census details taken in Birmingham and say a couple of days later a person could move and be in another place - hence on another census.
Am i just clutching at straws on this??
thank you

Dea

Dea Report 18 Mar 2013 17:48

I believe the census were all completed at the same time.

However, I have come across several instances of people being recorded twice.

It usually happens when the person usually lives with family and is so wrongly included in the household, and then again at an address where they are visiting or working etc.

Dea x

brummie46

brummie46 Report 18 Mar 2013 17:58

thanks Dea

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 18 Mar 2013 18:46

It can happen but it tends to be in the same area...and like my grandad, living with his wife and child in the same household as his mother. So he's recorded with his mother and with his wife and child.

And of course it can happen when someone is usually in a household and is recorded and then visits another and is recorded....

Jude