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Annie Cash or Cask/Llewellyn Further Update

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HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 16 Aug 2012 08:46

I am trying to fill in the gaps on this family.

Llewellyn Llewellyn was my great grand uncle and was born in Roath, Cardiff after the 1841 census so the first time I find him is in 1851 as an errand boy (with his elder sister Catherine). In 1861 he is working as a servant in Llanishen.

In 1865 he married Annie - Cash on record

Marriages Dec 1865 (>99%)
Cash Ann Cardiff 11a 471
Llewellyn Llewellyn Cardiff 11a 471

In 1871 they are living at 63 Clifton Street Roath

Name: Llewllyn Llewllyn
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Llewllyn
Gender: Male
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
Civil parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: Roath
Town: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 28b
Household schedule number: 207
Piece: 5367
Folio: 35
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Llewllyn Llewllyn 30
Annie Llewllyn 20
Elizebeth J Llewllyn 4
Thomas Llewllyn 2

The next time I found them was in 1891 at 58 Helen Street Roath. Ann is widowed

Name: Ann Llewellyn
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Head
Father's Name: William Cask
Gender: Female
Where born: Batcombe, Somerset, England
[England]
Civil parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: St Germans
Town: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4388
Folio: 45
Page Number: 81
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Llewellyn 54
Elizabeth Llewellyn 25
Thomas Llewellyn 22
William Llewellyn 19
William Cask 78

So I searched for death for Llewellyn and the only one I came up with was although the age is not quite right

Deaths Sep 1872 (>99%)
LLEWELLYN Llewellyn 32 Cardiff 11a 151

And then yesterday I found the family in 1881 lodging at 52 John Street Roath

Name: Anne Llewellin
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Somerset, England
Civil parish: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 52 John St
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Laundress
Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5286
Folio: 42
Page Number: 79
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Maine 50
Eliza Maine 40
Anne Llewellin 39
Elizabeth Llewellin 14
Thomas Llewellin 12
William Llewellin 9
Eliza Llewellin 5
William Cash 52

Infuriatingly, because they are lodging there are no relationships between the family. But this find has raised some questions.

Firstly, who is Eliza? If she is another daughter, then either her father wasn't Llewellyn or the death is wrong. CAN ANYONE FIND AN ALTERNATIVE DEATH FOR LLEWELLYN?

WHERE IS ELIZA IN 1891?

WHO IS WILLIAM CASH? It can't be Annie's father William as the age is wrong. But as I have not found Annie before 1871 I have no idea on her family. CAN ANYONE FIND HER IN 1841, 1851 OR 1861?

Beyond 1891 I have not found her. I have a death that fits with her being born in 1837 (but her year of birth is different on each of the three censuses I have found)

Deaths Dec 1911 (>99%)
Llewellyn Ann 74 Cardiff 11a 332

I will post my other gaps in the children separately on this thread

Reggie

Reggie Report 16 Aug 2012 08:49

To find out if the death is the right Ann......buy the cert. It should name her husband.

Same for the hubby....for details of the person registering the death

Reggie

Reggie Report 16 Aug 2012 08:53

William Cash in 1881 could be sheer coincidence of name

I note that he aged 26 years by 1891 - and changed his country of birth to England.

Ann's marriage cert will name her father.................if she knew him

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 16 Aug 2012 08:59

OK Part Two!

Elizabeth Jane married in 1893

Marriages Sep 1893 (>99%)
Brady Frederick Cardiff 11a 593
Llewellyn Elizabeth Jane Cardiff 11a 593

Frederick was christened Peter James Frederick but I assume, as his father was also Peter James, he assumed Frederick as his name.

For reference, here he is in 1881 (across the road from Elizabeth Jane)

Name: Frederick Brady
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Brady
Mother's Name: Marcella Brady
Gender: Male
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 51 John St

I can't find them at all in 1901 or 1911. CAN ANYONE FIND THEM? OR A DEATH FOR THEM? I know they were alive until 1896 as daughter Annie is with her uncle in 1901


Name: Annie Brady
Age in 1901: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: roath st margarets
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: East Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 69
Piece: 4974
Folio: 197
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Llewellyn 32
Johanna Llewellyn 32
Julia A Llewellyn 8
Liza Llewellyn 6
Thomas Llewellyn 1
Annie Brady 5
Charles Barrett 37
Catherine Barrett 57
David Barrett 32
John Barrett 11
Charles E Baker 5

I can track Thomas and his family right through to 1911.

But I haven't found William for sure after 1891 but given the common name I am not hopeful (I have six of them in my tree!)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 16 Aug 2012 09:05

Reggie, thanks. I am not convinced the two Williams are the same person. William 1891 is definitely her father as his relationship to her is on the census. William 1881 - not sure of relationship if, as you point out, there is one. It may indeed be coincidental.

I've never bought a death certificate - but I have my gran's and can see that maiden name is a requirement so that would nail it as well.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 1 Sep 2012 11:55

Re: Same for the hubby....for details of the person registering the death.

Well it's definitely the right Llewellyn Llewellyn death in 1872. He died of smallpox and the informant was Thomas Llewellyn of Spring Gardens Roath. His father, my great,great grandfather, was Thomas and that's where he was living at the 1871 census.

I also sent for the marriage certificate (to make sure that is also the correct Llewellyn LLewellyn) but infuriatingly, although they were on the same order - five in total - only three of the five arrived today!

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Sep 2012 18:25

The marriage cert has arrived and has not helped at all!

I think it is CasH rather than Cask. They married on 04/12/1865, she states her age as 22 years and father is William. Witnesses - which don't shed any light as far as I can see - H Noble and Thomas Davies. Her address 10 John Street Roath.

His age 25 years so three years older. So in 1871 - the only census they are together - the age difference is ten years 1841/1851 - so she would only have been 15 when she married!

But whatever - I cannot find a birth (still). Nor can I find her in 1851 or 1861 or 1901 or indeed, assuming I have the correct death in 1911.

And who is Eliza? If she is another daughter, then her father wasn't Llewellyn...but WHERE IS ELIZA IN 1891? (or beyond)?

I can't find a death for father William Cash/Cask that fits after 1891 with him being born in 1813 - there are two that fall either side of where William Cash in 1881's birth but he might be a red herring!

So these are the same questions that I posed before the marriage certificate came :-(

Any morsels gratefully appreciated!

Jude




HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 13 Feb 2013 20:01

Just a quick update...I have Thomas' will and in it he leaves £10 to the children of his late son Llewellyn - two sons and one daughter. So obviously confirms what I have said..

And who is Eliza? If she is another daughter, then her father wasn't Llewellyn...but WHERE IS ELIZA IN 1891? (or beyond)?

My gg-grandfather is very precise in his will that his estate will only pass to bloodline Llewellyns...so sons-in-law, daughters-in-law and children not born to a Llewellyn...absolutely zilch!!

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 13 Feb 2013 20:49

Baptism
Forenames:Eliza
Surname:Llewellyn
Baptism Year:1876
Baptism Month:Aug
Baptism Day:11
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:
Mothers Forenames:Anne
Page:
Record source:Glamorgan baptisms
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru
(address, 49 John Street)


Burial
Forenames:LLEWELLYN
Surname:LLEWELLYN
Abode:JOHN ST
Day Month:07SEP
Year:1872
Age:32
Status:-
Father:-
Mother:-
Parish:Roath St Margaret
Record source:Glamorgan Burial Index

Chris :)

1891 ?
SMITH, Elizabeth Head Widow F 43 1848
London
SMITH, Thomas Son Single M 22 1869 Laborer
London
SMITH, Richard Son Single M 20 1871 Laborer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, John Son Single M 18 1873 Laborer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, George Son M 16 1875 Tinsmith
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, Charles Son M 13 1878 Errand Boy
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, Lilian Daughter F 6 1885
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
PARFITT, Charles P Boarder Single M 24 1867 Labourer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
LLEWELLYN, Eliza Servant Single F 16 1875 Domestic
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Piece: 4388
Folio: 103
Page: 28
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough: Cardiff
Address: 13, Planet Street, Roath, Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire


Burial (if related?)
Forenames:WILLIAM LLEW'YN
Surname:CASH
Abode:JOHN ST
Day Month:17OCT
Year:1865
Age:6W
Status:-
Father:-
Mother:-
Parish:Roath St Margaret
Record source:Glamorgan Burial Index


HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Feb 2013 06:59

Ooer Chris..these look promising! That's definitely Llewellyn - he died 5th September (didn't hang around in those days)!

And that has to be Eliza in 1891 and the baptism - I'll see if I can find a GRO ref to go with that.

That 1865 burial (and birth effectively) looks interesting - just a few months before they married so it seems she registered the baby in her name

Thanks!

Jude

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 14 Feb 2013 08:17

Above was from FMP Jude, the Burials below, are from FreeReg, if other names fit anywhere!.

03 Jul 1845 LLEWELLYN Thomas Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
22 Oct 1864 LLEWELLYN William Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
18 Apr 1868 LLEWELLYN Hhannah Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
08 Jan 1871 LLEWELLYN John Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
07 Sep 1872 LLEWELLYN Llewellyn Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
04 Dec 1911 LLEWELLYN Ann Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff

18 Feb 1893 CASH William Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
01 Jun 1872 CASH Emma Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
08 May 1875 CASH Jane Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff


http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)

(not sure what happened to Eliza, but did see below 1901)

SOUTHWOOD, Abraham Head Married M 36 1865 Coal Trimmer
Bridgwater, Somersetshire
SOUTHWOOD, Matilda Wife Married F 34 1867
Penarth, Glamorganshire
PINCOTT, Gladys Niece F 8 1893
Barry, Glamorganshire
JAMES, Geo Nephew M 5 1896
Barry, Glamorganshire
CASH, Eliz Boarder Single F 24 1877 Chair Caner & Knitter
Partly Blind Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Piece: 4980
Folio: 27
Page: 46
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough:
Address: 40, Cycle Street, Roath, Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire

Chris :)


1871
CARTE, William Head M 48 1823 Somerset
CARTE, Janie Wife F 50 1821 Somerset
CARTE, Enma Daughter F 16 1855 Glamorgan
CARTE, Eliza Daughter F 14 1857 Glamorgan
HILL, Simon Son-In-Law M 23 1848 Somerset
HILL, Thomas Grandson M 0 1871 Glamorgan
Piece: 5367
Folio: 19
Page: 20
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough:
Address: 15 John St, Roath
County: Glamorganshire

(these could relate also, looking at address, and Burials posted above, think it's Cash on image!)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Feb 2013 18:35

OK...

No wonder I couldn't find her in 1891 (on A)

Name: Eliza Sterorllyn
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: St Germans
Town: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Piece: 4388
Folio: 103
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Smith 43
Thomas Smith 22
Richard Smith 20
John Smith 18
George Smith 16
Charles Smith 13
Lilian Smith 6
Charles Purfik 24
Eliza Sterorllyn 16

More as I sort!!

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Feb 2013 19:23

That baptism - bearing in mind Llewellyn was dead and that 1901 census...fits with a birth Sept 1875 for Eliza Cash

And William Llewellyn Cash (born quarter before they married is 11a 271

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Feb 2013 19:44

Chris thanks for your help!

That Carte/Cash lot possibly connected (Somerset) but not direct. William - you have a burial 1893 which fits with that census born 1823. Her father (from 1891 census was born 1813.

I still can't find a birth I am confident in for her. There is an Anne Cash born Frome - 9 miles from Batcombe - but in 1841 and 1851 she is with father Isaac - so probably not her.

The December 1911 death for Ann Llewellyn is the one I have assumed is her. Age is right for an 1837 birth (she obviously lied when she married...far from being 3 years younger than Llewellyn she was 3-4 years older - ha ha

So I think I am going to splash out on the births of Eliza Cash and William Llewellyn Cash and probably the death of Ann Llewellyn.

Would still like to find Ann in 1901/1911 - maybe daughter Elizabeth who married Brady holds the key?

wrt Eliza Llewellyn/Cash...I think she possibly married Albert Stagg in June 1905 and can find her in 1911 with 2 children (though not with Albert).

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 14 Feb 2013 20:19

Baptism
Forenames:Elizabeth Ann
Surname:Cash
Baptism Year:1863
Baptism Month:Feb
Baptism Day:21
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:
Mothers Forenames:Ann (Spinster)
(John Street. P written at side)

Deaths Mar 1863 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Cash Elizabeth Cardiff 11a 173


(wondering where Cash folks are 1861)

Chris :)

Burial
County Glamorganshire
Place Roath Cardiff
Church St Margaret's Parich Church
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 04 Dec 1911
Forename Ann
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname LLEWELLYN
Age 74
Abode Grouse St

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 14 Feb 2013 20:32

Quite a girl Annie Cash (if it's one and same) !! :-)

Yes the Cash folks are quite an enigma....the only censuses I am sure about are 1871 - with Llewellyn; 1881 where she is a boarder and there's a William Cash boarding as well who is 13 years older than her (according to the census) but probably only 8 years older than her....then in 1891 with her three children by Llewellyn and her father...and then they all disappear again :-(

Have sent for three certificates ...annual pension payment due next week :-)

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 14 Feb 2013 20:54

Lol, might explain the 'bloodline' bit in Will!.

Hopefully things will get 'sorted', quite a bit to work with...

Chris :)

(was there an occupation for Father William, 1865 Marriage)

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 14 Feb 2013 21:22

1911
LLOYD, Martha Head Widow F 76 1835 Lichpool Pem
LLEWELLYN, Ann Single F 74 1837 Lichpool Pem
RG number: RG14
Piece: 32083
Reference: RG14PN32083 RG78PN1845 RD588 SD2 ED16 SN311
Registration District: Cardiff
Sub District: East Cardiff
Enumeration District: 16
Parish: Cardiff
Address: 1 Grouse Street Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire

(this one goes with Burial above, probably forgot Birthplace!)

Chris :)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 Feb 2013 06:52

Yes Chris...he was - wait for it - a labourer ;-)

If that is her in 1911 she also forgot she was married (single on census)!!! Can't find Lichpool Pembrokeshire (no such place as far as I can see)...ah well sent for that death certificate so hopefully it will throw some light on things.

Yes it seems my great great grandfather was a canny so and so....the will is two pages handwritten long. He stipulates that his estate consisting of his eight house and stable (one house was the Crwys Hotel Cardiff)be held in trust for all his sons and daughters and dividends be paid quarterly or half yearly. I also devise that none of my sons in law or daughters in law then surviving shall have any control over my estate and that any monies should go to his grandchildren instead.

...... :-)

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 15 Feb 2013 10:56

Yes, quite puzzling the Cash...and the Albert Stagg Marriage, names her Father, as James, Deceased, Sailor...(Hmm!)

(FreeReg, has some Somerset Baptisms)

Noticed too, that Simon Hill on 1871, married Sarah Cash, their Son was Baptised William Thomas. Baptisms of Sarah and Emma are on FreeReg)

Think there is a connection somewhere, but where, lol.

Chris :)