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Cathryn

Thanks for this. I think what it DOES do is confirm that "my" Eliza Llewellyn/Cash is not the same person as married Albert Stagg

"My" Eliza has no father on the birth certificate and, although registered as Cash she seems to have gone by the name of Llewellyn even though she could not possibly have been Llewellyn Llewellyn's daughter.

Jude

Hello
I am quite new to genealogy research and have only just seen this post but I have knowledge of the Cash/Stagg marriage.

Elizabeth Flora Cash was my great grandmother. She married Albert Stagg in Cardiff in 1905 and they had two boys. Albert vanished circa 1909 leaving her and her two boys (one was my grandfather) to go to the Cardiff workhouse.
In 1918 she remarried. I have both of her wedding certificates.

On the 1st certificate she names her father as James Cash (sailor) and on the 2nd her father is listed as James Minifie (deceased), which left me very puzzled.

However whilst searching her name on archived newspapers I came across a number of distressing articles whereby Elizabeth Cash was the victim in one of the 1st NSPCC abuse trails in 1890. To cut a long story short, her stepfather Minifie by all accounts committed dreadfully cruel acts on her.It stated in the article her mother had passed away 18 months prior and that she was illegitimate. She was sent to the workhouse and is listed there in the 1891 census.

On Elizabeth Cash birth certificate it names her mother as Sarah Cash, father not named. It appears that Sarah had two sons with Minifie after her marriage but Elizabeth was her only daughter. I have traced Sarah Cash's family back to Chirk.

The Eliz Cash in the 1901 census in Cycle street is my Great grandmother. On the census is states she is partially blind and my dad recalls she used to wear an eye patch and her eye condition is mentioned in the newspaper articles.

Hope this helps
Cath

The birth certificates have arrived.

William Llewellyn Cash was born at 10 John Street Roath on 30 August 1865 the same address as Ann married from four months later. So I think little doubt that Llewellyn was his father.

Eliza was born at same address on 01 August 1875. Mother's name is given as Eliza, not Anjn, but the declarant was Mary Kerhood of 12 John Street who was present at the birth and declares herself to be grandmother. Which suggests her son was the father of Eliza....any thoughts anyone?????

Incidentally, Llewellyn died in 1872 at the Cardiff Union St John. Would this be a hospital?

Jude

How about this one??

Name: Ann Llewellyn
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1897
Age at Death: 61
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 202 (click to see others on page)

Let me know if anyone finds another "candidate" - I may plump for this cert!!

OK one thing solved and another opened up! The death certificate came today and it isn't her. It is of one Ann Llewellyn Spinster daughter of John, naval pensioner deceased.

So the burial and the 1911 census are the Ann on the certificate. So that leaves me now with a mystery as to what happened to "my Ann"?

So the last time I have her is in 1891 with her three children by Llewellyn Llewellyn.

So it's back to the drawing board to try and find her beyond either in 1901 census or a death between 1891 and 1901.

More when the two birth certificates come (hopefully tomorrow)

I know why we can't find her in 1861....John Street is missing off the Roath census. I have searched before for Llewellyn's sister Mary Taylor

Yes, quite puzzling the Cash...and the Albert Stagg Marriage, names her Father, as James, Deceased, Sailor...(Hmm!)

(FreeReg, has some Somerset Baptisms)

Noticed too, that Simon Hill on 1871, married Sarah Cash, their Son was Baptised William Thomas. Baptisms of Sarah and Emma are on FreeReg)

Think there is a connection somewhere, but where, lol.

Chris :)

Yes Chris...he was - wait for it - a labourer ;-)

If that is her in 1911 she also forgot she was married (single on census)!!! Can't find Lichpool Pembrokeshire (no such place as far as I can see)...ah well sent for that death certificate so hopefully it will throw some light on things.

Yes it seems my great great grandfather was a canny so and so....the will is two pages handwritten long. He stipulates that his estate consisting of his eight house and stable (one house was the Crwys Hotel Cardiff)be held in trust for all his sons and daughters and dividends be paid quarterly or half yearly. I also devise that none of my sons in law or daughters in law then surviving shall have any control over my estate and that any monies should go to his grandchildren instead.

...... :-)

1911
LLOYD, Martha Head Widow F 76 1835 Lichpool Pem
LLEWELLYN, Ann Single F 74 1837 Lichpool Pem
RG number: RG14
Piece: 32083
Reference: RG14PN32083 RG78PN1845 RD588 SD2 ED16 SN311
Registration District: Cardiff
Sub District: East Cardiff
Enumeration District: 16
Parish: Cardiff
Address: 1 Grouse Street Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire

(this one goes with Burial above, probably forgot Birthplace!)

Chris :)

Lol, might explain the 'bloodline' bit in Will!.

Hopefully things will get 'sorted', quite a bit to work with...

Chris :)

(was there an occupation for Father William, 1865 Marriage)

Quite a girl Annie Cash (if it's one and same) !! :-)

Yes the Cash folks are quite an enigma....the only censuses I am sure about are 1871 - with Llewellyn; 1881 where she is a boarder and there's a William Cash boarding as well who is 13 years older than her (according to the census) but probably only 8 years older than her....then in 1891 with her three children by Llewellyn and her father...and then they all disappear again :-(

Have sent for three certificates ...annual pension payment due next week :-)

Baptism
Forenames:Elizabeth Ann
Surname:Cash
Baptism Year:1863
Baptism Month:Feb
Baptism Day:21
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:
Mothers Forenames:Ann (Spinster)
(John Street. P written at side)

Deaths Mar 1863 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Cash Elizabeth Cardiff 11a 173


(wondering where Cash folks are 1861)

Chris :)

Burial
County Glamorganshire
Place Roath Cardiff
Church St Margaret's Parich Church
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 04 Dec 1911
Forename Ann
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname LLEWELLYN
Age 74
Abode Grouse St

Chris thanks for your help!

That Carte/Cash lot possibly connected (Somerset) but not direct. William - you have a burial 1893 which fits with that census born 1823. Her father (from 1891 census was born 1813.

I still can't find a birth I am confident in for her. There is an Anne Cash born Frome - 9 miles from Batcombe - but in 1841 and 1851 she is with father Isaac - so probably not her.

The December 1911 death for Ann Llewellyn is the one I have assumed is her. Age is right for an 1837 birth (she obviously lied when she married...far from being 3 years younger than Llewellyn she was 3-4 years older - ha ha

So I think I am going to splash out on the births of Eliza Cash and William Llewellyn Cash and probably the death of Ann Llewellyn.

Would still like to find Ann in 1901/1911 - maybe daughter Elizabeth who married Brady holds the key?

wrt Eliza Llewellyn/Cash...I think she possibly married Albert Stagg in June 1905 and can find her in 1911 with 2 children (though not with Albert).

That baptism - bearing in mind Llewellyn was dead and that 1901 census...fits with a birth Sept 1875 for Eliza Cash

And William Llewellyn Cash (born quarter before they married is 11a 271

OK...

No wonder I couldn't find her in 1891 (on A)

Name: Eliza Sterorllyn
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: St Germans
Town: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Piece: 4388
Folio: 103
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Smith 43
Thomas Smith 22
Richard Smith 20
John Smith 18
George Smith 16
Charles Smith 13
Lilian Smith 6
Charles Purfik 24
Eliza Sterorllyn 16

More as I sort!!

Above was from FMP Jude, the Burials below, are from FreeReg, if other names fit anywhere!.

03 Jul 1845 LLEWELLYN Thomas Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
22 Oct 1864 LLEWELLYN William Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
18 Apr 1868 LLEWELLYN Hhannah Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
08 Jan 1871 LLEWELLYN John Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
07 Sep 1872 LLEWELLYN Llewellyn Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
04 Dec 1911 LLEWELLYN Ann Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff

18 Feb 1893 CASH William Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
01 Jun 1872 CASH Emma Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff
08 May 1875 CASH Jane Glamorganshire Roath Cardiff


http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)

(not sure what happened to Eliza, but did see below 1901)

SOUTHWOOD, Abraham Head Married M 36 1865 Coal Trimmer
Bridgwater, Somersetshire
SOUTHWOOD, Matilda Wife Married F 34 1867
Penarth, Glamorganshire
PINCOTT, Gladys Niece F 8 1893
Barry, Glamorganshire
JAMES, Geo Nephew M 5 1896
Barry, Glamorganshire
CASH, Eliz Boarder Single F 24 1877 Chair Caner & Knitter
Partly Blind Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Piece: 4980
Folio: 27
Page: 46
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough:
Address: 40, Cycle Street, Roath, Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire

Chris :)


1871
CARTE, William Head M 48 1823 Somerset
CARTE, Janie Wife F 50 1821 Somerset
CARTE, Enma Daughter F 16 1855 Glamorgan
CARTE, Eliza Daughter F 14 1857 Glamorgan
HILL, Simon Son-In-Law M 23 1848 Somerset
HILL, Thomas Grandson M 0 1871 Glamorgan
Piece: 5367
Folio: 19
Page: 20
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough:
Address: 15 John St, Roath
County: Glamorganshire

(these could relate also, looking at address, and Burials posted above, think it's Cash on image!)

Ooer Chris..these look promising! That's definitely Llewellyn - he died 5th September (didn't hang around in those days)!

And that has to be Eliza in 1891 and the baptism - I'll see if I can find a GRO ref to go with that.

That 1865 burial (and birth effectively) looks interesting - just a few months before they married so it seems she registered the baby in her name

Thanks!

Jude

Baptism
Forenames:Eliza
Surname:Llewellyn
Baptism Year:1876
Baptism Month:Aug
Baptism Day:11
Place:Roath
County:Glamorganshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:
Mothers Forenames:Anne
Page:
Record source:Glamorgan baptisms
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru
(address, 49 John Street)


Burial
Forenames:LLEWELLYN
Surname:LLEWELLYN
Abode:JOHN ST
Day Month:07SEP
Year:1872
Age:32
Status:-
Father:-
Mother:-
Parish:Roath St Margaret
Record source:Glamorgan Burial Index

Chris :)

1891 ?
SMITH, Elizabeth Head Widow F 43 1848
London
SMITH, Thomas Son Single M 22 1869 Laborer
London
SMITH, Richard Son Single M 20 1871 Laborer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, John Son Single M 18 1873 Laborer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, George Son M 16 1875 Tinsmith
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, Charles Son M 13 1878 Errand Boy
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
SMITH, Lilian Daughter F 6 1885
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
PARFITT, Charles P Boarder Single M 24 1867 Labourer
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
LLEWELLYN, Eliza Servant Single F 16 1875 Domestic
Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Piece: 4388
Folio: 103
Page: 28
Registration District: Cardiff
Civil Parish: Roath
Municipal Borough: Cardiff
Address: 13, Planet Street, Roath, Cardiff
County: Glamorganshire


Burial (if related?)
Forenames:WILLIAM LLEW'YN
Surname:CASH
Abode:JOHN ST
Day Month:17OCT
Year:1865
Age:6W
Status:-
Father:-
Mother:-
Parish:Roath St Margaret
Record source:Glamorgan Burial Index

Just a quick update...I have Thomas' will and in it he leaves £10 to the children of his late son Llewellyn - two sons and one daughter. So obviously confirms what I have said..

And who is Eliza? If she is another daughter, then her father wasn't Llewellyn...but WHERE IS ELIZA IN 1891? (or beyond)?

My gg-grandfather is very precise in his will that his estate will only pass to bloodline Llewellyns...so sons-in-law, daughters-in-law and children not born to a Llewellyn...absolutely zilch!!

The marriage cert has arrived and has not helped at all!

I think it is CasH rather than Cask. They married on 04/12/1865, she states her age as 22 years and father is William. Witnesses - which don't shed any light as far as I can see - H Noble and Thomas Davies. Her address 10 John Street Roath.

His age 25 years so three years older. So in 1871 - the only census they are together - the age difference is ten years 1841/1851 - so she would only have been 15 when she married!

But whatever - I cannot find a birth (still). Nor can I find her in 1851 or 1861 or 1901 or indeed, assuming I have the correct death in 1911.

And who is Eliza? If she is another daughter, then her father wasn't Llewellyn...but WHERE IS ELIZA IN 1891? (or beyond)?

I can't find a death for father William Cash/Cask that fits after 1891 with him being born in 1813 - there are two that fall either side of where William Cash in 1881's birth but he might be a red herring!

So these are the same questions that I posed before the marriage certificate came :-(

Any morsels gratefully appreciated!

Jude