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The mystery of Lillie-no longer-now seeking Fursey

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Christine

Christine Report 11 Oct 2012 15:26

I now have both the certificates, and I'm sure I have found her, although they do raise a question or two.

Lillie Jane Wiltshire was born 7th September 1892 (the same birthday as the family had for her). Mother Jane Wiltshire, formerly Scott. Father Frank Wiltshire.

Jane Wiltshire, widow was then married to John Furzey, widower on 21st April 1893.
What is intriguing about that is the death that Rambling Rose found, for a Susan Fursey in the March quarter of 1893. I'm not sure I can afford any more certificates just yet, but I would love to know who the informant was, and what she died from!

I have now found a marriage for Jane Scott and Frank Wiltshire in the June quarter of 1887, and a death for Frank Wiltshire in June 1890. The problem with this as far as Lillie Jane is concerned, is that it's two years before she was born and he is shown as the father!

My imagination is working overtime - was she John Furzey's child and he has married Jane at the first opportunity after his possible wife's death?

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 11 Oct 2012 20:03

Christine

if a baby is born to a married woman, her husband is always assumed to be the father, and his name put as such on the birth certificate ............ even if he has been dead for a long time.

The longest time I have seen was a baby born 10 years after the husband died!


The only exceptions would be if the birth father agreed to have his name on the certificate, and attended the registration. OR if the mother basically said she was single.


It could well be that John Fursey was the father ............... or it could be someone else.

What often happened after a widow with children remarried was that her children began to use the step-father's name ................. there was no official adoption in those days, so you will not find any documentation.




sylvia

Christine

Christine Report 11 Oct 2012 20:21

I didn't know about the practice of using the dead father's name - that's really interesting, and I think it solves another mystery elsewhere in my tree - thank you!

As Lillie would have been only 6 months old when her mother remarried, it would be only natural for her to be Fursey and not Wiltshire. She would have been astonished, I think, to know how much time and attention has been paid to finding out who she really was!

I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts and interest in helping me with this.

Christine

Christine Report 27 Oct 2012 15:45

To update now I have the certs:
Jane Scott married Frank Wiltshire in 1887
Frank died in 1890
Lillie Jane was born in 1892
Jane Wiltshire married John Fursey in 1893.
John Fursey died in 1890
Jane Fursey married Thomas Neller in 1918

Could not have achieved this without your help - many thanks.

I wonder if I could ask one more favour? I am still having a problem with payment to GR and Find My Past - my computer is blocking me with strange error messages, so I can't look up the censuses. I need to find Jane Scott (c 1865) with her father John Scott, a tailor in or around the Hounslow area in 1871.

K

K Report 27 Oct 2012 17:03

1871? Mother Jane is listed as a tailoress and married

Name: Jane Scott
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Jane Scott
Gender: Female
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Heston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Hounslow
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Isleworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Household schedule number: 113
Piece: 1314
Folio: 45
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Jane Scott 43 born Ceylon
Edward Scott 18 born Guernesey
James Scott 16
Richard Scott 12
George Scott 8
Jane Scott 7
Cyril Scott 1

K

K Report 27 Oct 2012 17:31

1881 ? But this time all the family are born in the UK

Name: John Scott
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Scott
Gender: Male
Where born: Berwick, Wiltshire, (the image just says Berwick)

Civil parish: Heston
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address: Military Road 6 Tivoli Cottes
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Tailor

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Isleworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1340
Folio: 13
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
John Scott 52
Jane Scott 51
William Scott 21
George Scott 18
Cecil Scott 11

K

K Report 27 Oct 2012 17:38

1891? i think this confirms it is the right family - Jane listed as a widow on the image and the surname on the image could well be Wiltshire (wrongly transcribed by Anc) Edit - a tree on Anc lists the wife's maiden name as Rose

Name: Joh Scott
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Scott
Gender: Male
Where born: Part N K, Scotland

Civil parish: Heston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Hounslow
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Isleworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1025
Folio: 38
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Joh Scott 65
Jane Scott 64
Jane Scott 24 actually looks like Wiltshire on the image
Cecil Scott 21

Slightly better from FMP

SCOTT, John Head Married M 65 1826 Tailor
Scotland
SCOTT, Jane Wife Married F 64 1827
East Indies
WHITTSHAM, Jane Daughter WidoW F 24 1867
Chelsea, London
SCOTT, Cecil Son Single M 21 1870 Private Infantry
Hounslow, Middlesex

Piece: 1025

Folio: 38

Page: 20

Registration District: Brentford

Civil Parish: Heston

Municipal Borough:

Address: 4, Lidgolds Cottages, George The 4th Road, Heston, Hounslow

County: Middlesex

Christine

Christine Report 27 Oct 2012 20:28

That's terrific - thank you K! Definitely the right people, I do appreciate the help - I'm getting so frustrated at not being able to look things up for myself - I think I'll just send GR a cheque and be done with it!

Christine

Christine Report 28 Oct 2012 09:18

K, I have now had chance to go through everything you sent me yesterday ( I was too tired last night, so I printed it all off). Several things strike me. Firstly, I am coming to believe that John Scott may have been a tailor for the army, so that his absence in 1871 could mean that he was away with them. There is a later connection (Frank Wiltshire) with the Middlesex Regiment, based in Hounslow. I need to find out where the regiment was in 1871.

The two youngest sons were George and Cyril. Jane's daughter, Lillie Jane had two sons, named George and Cyril. Possibly Cecil in the 1881/1891 was mis-transcribed?

I was really puzzled by John Scott having been born in Wiltshire and Scotland, until my husband (who doesn't normally take any interest!) said "Oh, it'll be Berwick-on-Tweed". I believe that's on the borders, so may have been part of Scotland at that time. It could have been an attachment to the army that brought him down to Middlesex. I feel a subscription to Scotland's People coming on!

Thank you so much!

K

K Report 28 Oct 2012 11:23

Sorry - the transciption was Berwick Wiltshire. I have no idea were Wiltshire came from the image is just Berwick and I think your husband is right re Berwick on Tweed.

Berwick moved back and forth between Scotland and England over the years.

I can't see the family anywhere in 1861.

Re Cyril/Cecil I think it is the 1871 census that is incorrect and he is Cecil as below and in 1911

Births Mar 1870 (>99%)
Scott Cecil Brentford 3a 58

1911

Name: Cecil Scott
Age in 1911: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Birth Place: Hounslow, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Hendon
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: Mill Hill Barracks, Bittacy Hill, Mill Hill N W
Marital Status: Married
Military unit: 5th Battalion Middlesex Regiment
Registration district: Hendon
Registration District Number: 130
Sub-registration district: Hendon
ED, institution, or vessel: 27-34
Piece: 7128

Christine

Christine Report 28 Oct 2012 13:47

Hello K

Maybe the transcriber assumed that Berwick was Wiltshire?

Yes if the 1911 gives him as Cecil that must be right, mustn't it. Perhaps she just liked the name Cyril! This turning out to be a really interesting line.

Stuart

Stuart Report 28 Oct 2012 18:49

British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription

First name(s): Cecil
Last name: SCOTT
Calculated year of birth: ?
Parish of birth:
Town of birth:
County of birth:
Age at attestation: 41 years 8 months<<<<<<<<<<<<<age at DISCHARGE
Attestation date:
Attestation corps:
Attestation soldier number:
Discharge rank: Drummer
Discharge corps: Duke Of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment)
Discharge soldier number: 5317

The National Archives reference: WO97 / 5855 / 134

There are 13 images available for this soldier

Christine

Christine Report 28 Oct 2012 19:57

Oh thank you Stuart that's really interesting - his sister's first husband, Frank Wiltshire - mentioned earlier in this thread - was a drummer in the Middlesex Regiment. He must have had some regard for him to have followed him into the same rank and regiment.

It's all these pieces of information that come together to give a feeling for what these people were like don't you think? It turns them onto real people and not just names on a document.

Much appreciated.

Stuart

Stuart Report 28 Oct 2012 20:29

*Attested to Militia Duke of Cambridge's Own 3rd Battalion Middlesex Regt as a Boy 2 October 1884 to 24.4.1897 12 years 205 days.
*Service number 1147
*14 years 6 months, height 4 feet 103/4 inches, weight 75 lbs CofE Fresh complexion, hazel eyes, brown hair
*Appointed Drummer until 10 March 1888. Attained age of 18 on11 March 1888 and continued as Drummer. Granted Good Conduct Pay @ 1d on 4 Sept 1888
*NofK at attestation - Parents John and Jane Scott No 3 ALpha Cottages, Staines Road, Hounslow, Middx. 4 older brothers Edward, James, Richard and George. 2 sisters Eliza and Jane
GC Pay @ 2d on 2 Oct 1890 and @ 3d on 2 October 1896
*Married Amy Goddard Hounslow 9 Dec 1893 Hounslow, witnesses Thomas Townley and Alice Baverstock
*Discharged free after 12 years service 24.4.1897 Termination of engagement

*Attested again 3 February 1898 to 5th Btn The Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middx Regt) - says currently belongs to 2nd V?. B. Middx Regt
Medically fit 20th January 1898 at Hounslow-
(? reserves) Age 27 years and 10 months. Born Parish of Heston, Hounslow. Trade Musician.
*Service Number 5317
*Now 5feet 71/4 inches, weight 128 lbs, chest 341/2 in, expanded 37 inches. Complexion still fresh, hair and eyes dark brown. Scars - inside right elbow, forehead and outside left eye
*Embarked for South Africa 22.2.1902 until 30.8.1902
*Granted service pay at 7d 1.4.04
*Extended service on 1.4.1905 to complete 12 years with the colours
*Reengaged for the Middx Regt at Mill Hill on 4.10.1909 for such term as shall complete 21 years service (previous 12 year 205 days counted towards pension)
*Discharged to pension 31.12.1911

Obtained 3rd class certificate of education, passed class of instruction for ambulance 25.11.1910 and awarded South African War Medal with clasps for Cape Colony, Transvaal and South Africa 1902.
*Medal Roll NAtional Archives WO100 series Roll 195 Page 0
Gratuity on discharge £5

9 children listed on documents with DoB and baptisms
Elsie 27.9.94/2.12.94
Reginald 30.10.95/15.11.95
Winifred 3.11.97/12.12.97
Harold 11.6.00/27.7.00
Rosalind Mary 18.6.02
Constance Margaret 13.10.04/4.11.04
All aboveb/bap at Hounslow
Ivy Grace 14.1.06/not given
Dorothy 4.12.07/22.12.07
Ronald Jack 10.7.09/19.9.09
These 3 at Mill Hill

Christine

Christine Report 28 Oct 2012 22:43

Stuart that's amazing. Such a lot of information and how nice to have a description! This also mentions a sister I didn't know about. Very strange to think that his children would have grown up in the same area as Jane's and Lillie's and yet I'm fairly sure that the family I knew were unaware of any nearby relatives. Many thanks for your efforts.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 29 Oct 2012 03:36

According to a Public Family Tree on ancestry, Cecil died in March 1912, registered Edmonton, Middlesex


so he didn't live very long after discharged to pension.




sylvia

Christine

Christine Report 29 Oct 2012 08:58

What a shame - that would make him only 42 and still about 7 years short of his full pension.

Stuart

Stuart Report 29 Oct 2012 11:29

Christine -
I read it that he did 12 years + in his first stint which when added to his second stint from Feb 1898 to Dec 1911 more than made the 21 years reckonable service for pension (25+). Perhaps the rules had changed by then and his boys time of 3 1/2 years was not counted, so when subtracted he would have completed just over the 21???

Showing on Ancestry, there is a Reginald Cecil Scott No. 106022 Lance Corporal MAchine Gun Corps Killed in Action 9 Dec 1917 France and Flanders, enlisted Mill Hill. Formerly No. 13486 Middlesex Regiment - so I wonder if this was his son or just a coincidence??

Christine

Christine Report 29 Oct 2012 14:33

Maths never was my strong point so I'm sure you're right! As one of his children was Reginald that could well have been his son. Because Cecil was a sibling of the person I was researching, I don't have any other information about his descendants I'm afraid.

K

K Report 29 Oct 2012 14:54

1901 - It does look likely that it was his son

Name: Reginald Cecil Scott
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Cecil Scott
Mother's name: Amy Scott
Gender: Male
Where born: Hounslow, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Heston
Ecclesiastical parish: Hounslow Heath St Paul
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Isleworth
ED, institution, or vessel: The Barracks Hounslow
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 1186
Folio: 35
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Cecil Scott 31
Amy Scott 25
Elsie Amy Scott 6
Reginald Cecil Scott 5
Winifred Amy Scott 3
Harnold Wilfred Scott 9 Months