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I have a paradox.
I can find no trace of a marriage cert for my g'father and his second 'wife'. From what I know of their lives/finances it is extremely unlikely they married abroad. However in 1946 they obtained a joint husband/wife passport which I have. The Passport Office tell me that even then they would need to produce a marriage cert to do this. (I wondered if there was any relaxation during/after the war).
So how did the obtain the passport? Maybe he fiddled it.
Any ideas greatly appreciated.
Martin (Suffolk)

give the name and D.O.B for your grandfather and his second wife and were there born and lived , and maybe someone might be able to trace there marriage for you

Did he serve in WW2 ?

Have you checked on scotlandspeople for a marriage - not a sub site.

Or on FMP for an overseas marriage

Martin - for marriage purposes, "abroad" would include N Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. Where was he stationed in WW2?

I think Martin has Herbert Waldron, 1891, Deal Kent in his tree. (And subsequent births/marriages in Portsmouth. Possibly Herbert G)

So, very speculatively:
Herbert George Waldron
Birth Date: 11 Mar 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1973
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Portsmouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 1640

Martin,
Do you know if Herbert divorced Bertha?

Patchem that is sooooooooooooooo sexist :-)

Martin do you know if THEY divorced?? ha ha?

Ok, yes it is sexist.
But we are looking for grandfather and second wife, so he had the motive for a divorce?

Marriages Jun 1912

Merchant Bertha L - Waldron- Portsmouth 2b 1007
WALDRON Herbert G- Merchant - Portsmouth 2b 1007

-------------------------------------------

Is this his second marriage (or could it be his son ??

Marriages Dec 1943

Simpkins Evelyn M - Waldron- Cirencester 6a 1011
Waldron Herbert G - Simpkins - Cirencester 6a 1011

I understand commercial aviation was becoming more affordable and accessible from the mid 1940s so it's possible they flew somewhere so wouldn't show on outgoing shipping lists.

The incoming shipping lists are mainly from departure points outside of Europe so if they'd been travelling to/from Europe they probably wouldn't show on those, either.

Not much help, I know.

And I agree with Jude - the fact Herbert had a second wife may imply that he'd had a fancy piece and then married her after his wife divorced him.

haha ...Nice one MC !!

Thanks Mike, I may be completely wrong but it had to be said! ;-)

Martin has not returned to confirm that we are looking for the correct person.

I had not said who was the guilty party. I think I was implying that he 'got' the divorce because he wanted to remarry. We can never assume anything about any problems in other people's marriages. Particularly in wartime. In fact, particularly at any time.

Patchem - does there need to be a guilty party in a divorce? I guess there can be but often there isn't.....the death obviously suggests Bertha did not remarry.


The only way we can assist Martin is for him to come back and confirm the second wife's name.

And I think Martin's comment at the start "The Passport Office tell me that even then they would need to produce a marriage cert to do this" is not necessarily/strictly true.

I married in 1981. My husband nor I had a passport at the time and, as we were honeymooning in Paris, we had to get one in advance of the wedding. Our first passport was in my husband's name with me as his spouse (I couldn't travel without him but he could without me). So obviously we didn't have a marriage certificate to produce.

Jude

Many thanks, everyone for your help. However I was perhaps not clear.I was referring to my maternal grandfather, Roland Turk who married my grandmother, Mary Sutton, in 1914. Fact. They had two children, my mother, Pauline and Graham who died aged 3. Roland 'disappeared' from the family and pitched up with Elizabeth Eagleson (b Hexham/Prudhoe 1898) about whom I know quite a lot. She actually married a Watson in 1918 IIRC, so when she and my Grandfather got together in about 1923/4 they were both already married. They had a daughter with whom I am in contact and she, in turn, married an Australian in 1946 and they both went there to live. Fact. Her father and mother took out the joint passport when they too emigrated to Australia at the same time. I have this passport. So the mystery is how they obtained it without an apparent m. certificate which the pssport office assures me was essential. Thanks to the posters who sugested Scotland or Ireland. I will check these again. I appreciate mainland Europe would be more difficult.
The other names posters mentioned - Herbert George, Bertha ets are on my father's side and have no mysteries. i knew them personally and their history is straightforward.
Many thanks to everyone and happy relo hunting.
Martin Waldron

well there you go then

R W Turk 55y To melbourne 1946 of Regents Palace Hotel -- Philater and Auctioner
B Turk 48y Sec to Above

Mavis

From a tree on Ansty

Roland William Turk
Birth 21 Jan 1891 in Woodford Green Essex
Death 28 Mar 1955 in Melbourne Australia

Parents
Harry Sydney Turk
1866 –
Harriet Edna
1869 -


Spouse :
Elizabeth Eagleson
B:17 July 1898Prudhoe, Northumberland, England
D:1972 Melbourne Australia

Martin - as posted earlier.

I married December 12 1981. On December 13 1981 I travelled to Paris on a joint passport in my married name.

Passport was issued prior to marriage so we obviously did not have a marriage certificate to obtain it.

Jude

As I remember a passport issued in advance of a marriage was sent to the person officiating in the marriage & only handed to the couple after the ceremony.

You may be right Wisechild....it was so long ago I can't remember! Add to that it was done in a rush because up to two weeks before the wedding we were going to honeymoon on a Scottish isle....what made me change I do not know but I had a white wedding - the coldest day in Glasgow on record according to Multi-coloured Swap Shop...and had we not changed we would never have made it to Scotland let alone an isle :-)