Find Ancestors

Hi all
Can anyone discover if william coke possible father of louisa coke born july august september 1865 was the one who was married to a jane and living in holsworthy devon in 1861 . This would make the later marriage of a william coke and susannah lyle/lyall/lisle in 1865 as a strange one where william would be approx 77 years old and susannah would be 27. Susannah was the mum of louisa coke . Susannah we think went on to marry a man named cook, and had children named william henry cook and charles cook born 1868 and 1871 respectively.
Louisa was equally hard work as she went on to have a child frederick james coke out of wedlock. She went on to marry an edward pickles and this son frederick james always thought of himself as james pickles. "james" go his birth certificate and it shows his name as coke, but he thought of it as cook and corrected it as he saw his cousins named cook and thought he was named cook . Its all very confusing. But trying to prove that this william coke was the possible father and husband of louisa and susannah.
can anyone help?
regards
shirley :-)

Hello Shirley, what census do you have them on - can you give us details?

What certificates do you have to confirm your information?

Which one of these people are you connected to, and how? (Just so we can work out the correct info).

Is this Louisa with family in 1871?

COOK, Susanna Head F 33 1838 Devon < Carpenter's widow
COOK, Louisa Daughter F 6 1865 Devon
COOK, William H Son M 3 1868 Devon
COOK, Charles Son M 0 1871 Devon

Piece: 2210 Folio: 48 Page: 23
Registration District: Holsworthy
Civil Parish: Holsworthy

Address: Under Street Holsworthy, Little, Holsworthy County: Devonshire

Louisa born Plymouth, the rest born Holsworthy. Susannah is the head and the rest are her children.

I'm thinking that Coke has more likely been mis-recorded as Cook .....

What makes you think that the William who married in 1865 would have been 77?

What about this one in 1861? He's a similar age to Susannah and is a carpenter, fits her being a carpenter's widow in 1871. Louisa was born Plymouth:

COKE, Thomas Head Widower M 53 1808 House Carpenter ..., Devon
COKE, Sophia ... Unmarried F 67 1794 Laindon, Cornwall
COKE, Thomas Son Unmarried M 22 1839 House Carpenter Stonehouse, Devon
COKE, William D Son Unmarried M 20 1841 House Carpenter Stonehouse, Devon <<
COKE, Emma J Daughter F 18 1843 Stonehouse, Devon
COKE, Charles Son M 13 1848 Scholar Stonehouse, Devon
COKE, Louisa Daughter F 10 1851 Stonehouse, Devon

Piece: 1436 Folio: 81 Page: 48
Registration District: Plymouth
Civil Parish: Charles
Municipal Borough: Plymouth

Address: Armada Street, Charles, Plymouth County: Devonshire

yes, marieceleste. They are the correct family on the 1871. I am unable to find them on the 1861. That is, Susanna lyall/lisle/lyle. William is married to jane, we think, nee vickery in 1861. The children are not born.
For some reason, louisa moves to downham in lancashire. She is the mother of james pickles. But when he got his birth certificate his name was frederick james coke, so he was very annoyed. He changed the name on the certificate in pencil to cook and from that day called himself james cook, as he thought that the name of his uncles, who were then living in barnoldswick yorkshire/lancashire was the correct name -i.e cook. William h and charles were only called cook because susanna happened to marry a man named cook after she married william coke.

We really want to find susannah lisle/lyall/lyle in 1861. I found a susannah lyle in holsworthy on a census i think in 1861 or 1871 aged 55 but i think she may have been parent or relative of susanna born 1838.
does this help?
shirley :-)

Shirley, I've added some info to my post above.

What hard facts do you have, or are assumptions being made?

To end any speculation you really need to get William and Susannah's marriage certificate to get the facts about their ages and fathers(if known).

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1865
Barrett John Plymouth 5b 502
Coke William Plymouth 5b 502 <<
Lyle Susanna Plymouth 5b 502 <<
Webb Rebecca Plymouth 5b 502

Hi again
I think the man whose tree it is has found william coke married to jane on the 1861 and he was a carpenter living in holsworthy. But i am wondering if this was the correct william coke, and maybe the william coke who married susannah lyle in 1865 could have been son of william coke senior, with mother jane? its very confusing. They have louisa coke's birth certificate which says her father is william coke , carpenter. The only one they find is william coke aged 72 in 1865.

Shirley, never trust anyone else's trees!!
Sounds as though they've found someone with the same name and forced them to fit. Bear in mind that the name could easily have been misrecorded so other options need to be checked. The name Cooke becomes Coke if you drop an "o" and Cook if you drop an "e" so it's easy for them to get mixed up.

As I said before you really need to get the marriage certificate.

Hi again
Thanks for that. Yes. i think yiou may be right. The new william coke fits in better and is more susannas age. i will tell the cooks (yes they still call themselves cook even though it should be coke), to get william and susannahs marriage certificate. This will at least then give fathers names for each of them.
thanks for your help with this confusing family .
shirley

Hi again
I have advised them to get certificates, and they have quite a lot but you are right, they need to get the william coke and susannah lyle one and also maybe find the date and then get the certificate of the second marriage of susannah to a cook after the death of william coke. They are elderly and are naturally careful with their outgoings. I too thought that coke and cook were just a misspelling, but they were insistent that the certificates of william h and charles cook had defiantely cook and a different dad to louisa's william coke. But as they had seen them lots of years ago their memories
are not as reliable . it is always best to have proof , and i think they do realise they may have to buy more certificates to be sure once and for all.
thanks again
shirley :-)

You're very welcome Shirley!

I'm not too sure that Susannah ever married a Mr Cook - the 1871 shows the whole family as Cook, even Louisa and Susannah is a widow.

Will see if I can dig up any more possibilities.

Hi Marieceleste
Thisa couple whose tree it is are absolutely lovely, been married about sixty odd years and have been on radio, they are so funny. So my friend and i are trying to help them. You have to go gently when saying they really need to get certificates, they are of the generation that takes care with their money. I am of the same opinion about the second cook marriage, not certain that there is one. louisa married an edward pickles, then a john mcgarrigan . On the 1901 census before she married john mcgarrigan, james pickles, otherwise james coke was written down as fred j coke pickles. And on the 1911 census he was known as james frederick cork. But on his birth certificate he was definately frederick james coke. It is all very confusing.
The 1901 shows louisa as pickles aged 36, with fred james and his half brother and sister john pickles aged 7 and florrie pickles aged 3.
thanks for your help on this .
regards
shirley :-)

Hi again
The brother or perhaps half brother of louisa coke/cook , charles, born in 1871 had two sons, one named frank and one with the unusual name of Adan? i cant find their births . The couple i am helping said that they were always called cook. They would have been born in barnoldswick-skipton registration district in the 1890's. But like you say. just because charles and the children were always called cook , does not necessarily mean that they were coke, and just changed spelling in error. And louisa was always coke, well maiden name anyway.
i have found a charles cook marrying a mary nuttall or a jane scrivener , not sure which one he married, which would be about right for time of charles's marriage. :-)

Found a birth of an eden cook in skipton in 1900, which could be the son of charles.

Just to add , i have found the family of charles cook on the 1911 census in barnoldswick. his son is down as charles haddon cook born in 1900. So i am wondering if thats the eden cook i found in 1900 born in skipton? Its an unusual name eden/haddon. He was actually known as haddon/adan/eden as well, probably because charles was his dadfs name. And they are defiantely called cook, not coke.

I wonder if the son's name was meant to be Aidan but because of literacy issues it had an unusual variety of spellings?

EDIT: Just found this:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Charles Haddon Cook
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1901
Registration district: Skipton
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9a
Page: 30

You said that Charles b1871 had a son called Frank, but there's no mention of him on the 1911:

COOK, Charles Head Widower M 40 1871 Cotton Weaver Devonshire Holsworthy
COOK, Ivy Susannah Daughter Single F 17 1894 House Keeping Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Violet Daughter Single F 15 1896 Cotton Weaver Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Winifred Daughter F 12 1899 School Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Charles Haddon Son M 11 1900 School Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Jane Marie Daughter F 10 1901 School Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Doris Daughter F 6 1905 Yorkshire Barnoldswick
COOK, Robert Henry Son M 0 (10 MONTHS) 1911 Yorkshire Barnoldswick

RG number: RG14 Piece: 25770
Reference: RG14PN25770 RG78PN1484 RD485 SD3 ED12 SN172
Registration District: Skipton
Sub District: Barnoldswick
Enumeration District: 12
Parish: Barnoldswick

Address: 7 East Avenue Barnoldswick Via Colne County: Yorkshire (West riding)

On the original image it says 9 children born alive, 7 still living (all seem to be accounted for on the census) and 3 had died. Either the sums are wrong or one baby may have been stillborn.

1901 indicates that it was Mary Ann Nuttall that Charles married:

COOK, Charles Head Married M 29 1872 Cotton Weaver Holsworthy, Devonshire
COOK, Mary A Wife Married F 29 1872 Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
COOK, Ivy S Daughter F 6 1895 Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
COOK, Violet Daughter F 4 1897 Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
COOK, Winifred Daughter F 1 1900 Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
COOK, Charles H Son M 0 (2 MOS) 1901 Barnoldswick, Yorkshire

Piece: 4028 Folio: 53 Page: 47
Registration District: Skipton
Civil Parish: Barnoldswick

Address: Clifford Street, Barnoldswick County: Yorkshire (West riding)

Have found Mary Ann Nuttall's baptism:

Lancashire, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911
Name: Mary Ann Nuttall
Birth Date: 22 Oct 1871
Baptism Date: 26 Apr 1877
Parish: Barnoldswick
Father: Robert Nuttall - slater and plasterer.
Mother: Jane Nuttall
Reference Number: Pr 3440/1/50

States she was baptised at home. Possibly she wasn't baptised as a baby and was maybe very ill as a child hence the home baptism. Obviously survived.

Here's Charles & Mary Ann's marriage:

Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Mary Ann Nuttall, spinster - a weaver
Age: 22
Birth Year: abt 1872
Marriage Date: 7 Jul 1894
Parish: Barnoldswick
Spouse: Charles Cook, bachelor - a weaver
Spouse Age: 22
Father: Robert Nuttall - slater
Spouse Father: William Cook (deceased) - carpenter
Reference Number: Pr 3440/1/20

Witnesses: William Henry Coke and Emily Nuttall

(I'm guessing that William Henry was his brother)

Louisa's first marriage gives us Cooke, Coke and Cook all on one record!

Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936

Name: Louisa Coke, spinster of parish. Weaver
Age: 37
Birth Year: abt 1855
Marriage Date: 11 Dec 1892
Parish: Barnoldswick
Spouse: Edward Pickles, widower of Colne. Weaver
Spouse Age: 62
Father: William Henry Coke (deceased) - joiner (written as Cook on register)
Spouse Father: David Pickles (deceased) - weaver
Reference Number: Pr 3440/1/20

Witnesses: Earl ? Ware ?? and Anne Atkinson.

Louisa's surname originally written on register as Cooke then one of the o's crossed out.

I suspect that 10 years was added to her age so the gap between her and Edward didn't look so bad.