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Philip George Lawrence b.1884

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Brian

Brian Report 19 Nov 2012 21:02

Looking for his death. He was born 1884 in Abinger, Surrey. His son Arthur Cyril Lawrence died in WW2 in 1944 and has a memorial in Singleton Church, Nr. Chichester, West Sussex. His wife Aileen died 1946 in West Dean, Chichester and may be buried in Singleton when a widow. Philip was in the Royal Navy until 1922 so there is a window of 26 years.
Anyone in Chichester area could maybe help?

Many thanks
Brian

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 19 Nov 2012 21:12

Do you have Aileen's death cert. that says she was widow, because there's this death?

Deaths Dec 1948 (>99%)
Lawrence Phillip G 65 Surrey S. E. 5g 709

Rose

Mike *

Mike * Report 19 Nov 2012 21:13

Is this him ?


Philip Lawrence
Birth 1883 in Abinger, Surrey, England

parents :

Francis Lawrence 1847 –
Mary Ireland

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 19 Nov 2012 21:15

Don't know if it's "your" Philip but there is this death (although it is a couple of years after Aileen, so perhaps not):-


Name: LAWRENCE, Phillip G
Registration district: Surrey South Eastern
County: Surrey
Year of registration: 1948
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death: 65
Volume no: 5G
Page no: 709

Kath. x

Vicci

Vicci Report 19 Nov 2012 21:15

from cwg.org
LAWRENCE, ARTHUR CYRIL

Rank:
Staff Serjeant
Service No:
7584739
Date of Death:
18/09/1944
Age:
32
Regiment/Service:
The Glider Pilot Regiment, A.A.C.

1st Wing
Grave Reference
3. D. 12.
Cemetery
ARNHEM OOSTERBEEK WAR CEMETERY

Additional Information:

Son of Philip F. and Aileen N. M. Lawrence, of Westdean, Chichester, Sussex.


Country:
Netherlands
Locality:
Gelderland
Identified Casualties:
1436

Location Information

The city of Arnhem is in the east of the Netherlands, the village of Oosterbeek is 7kms west of Arnhem.

From the A12 motorway DEN HAAG to ARNHEM take exit 25 (Afrit 25) N224 OOSTERBEEK / WOLFHEZE. Follow the signs for OOSTERBEEK. After approx 3.5kms turn right (CWGC Sign) onto the DREYENSEWEG. Continue for approx 2kms and turn left (CWGC sign) onto VAN LIMBURG STIRUMWEG. After approx 1km the cemetery can be found on the left side. The cemetery address is:- Van Limburg Stirumweg 6861 WL Oosterbeek Netherlands GPS Location is:-
N 51 59 35
E 05 50 54

Visiting Information

Visitors are advised not to leave possessions lying visible in their car as theft is common at the municipal car park in front of the cemetery

Wheelchair access to this cemetery is possible via the main entrance.

For further information regarding wheelchair access, please contact our Enquiries Section on 01628 507200

Historical Information

Following the Normandy landings of June 1944, the Allied advance through northern Europe was extraordinarily rapid and on 11 September 1944, the Second Army entered the Netherlands just south of Eindhoven, the first Allied troops to set foot in the country since its fall in May 1940.

Their next aim was to cross the Rhine before the Germans had time to reorganise after their recent setbacks, securing crossings over the rivers and canals that stood in their path at Grave, Nijmegen and Arnhem. 'Operation Market Garden' would involve the United States 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions, the Commonwealth 1st Airborne Division and the Polish Parachute Brigade.

On 17 September 1944, the 1st Airborne Division began landing west of Arnhem, but German resistance, bad weather and problems with supplies and reinforcements led to heavy losses, and their objectives were not taken. They were forced to form a perimeter at Oosterbeek which they held stubbornly until 25 September, when it was decided to withdraw the remnants of the division across the lower Rhine.

Arnhem Oosterbeek War Cemetery contains the graves of most of those killed during the September landings, and many of those killed in later fighting in the area.

There are now 1,680 Commonwealth servicemen of the Second World War buried or commemorated in the cemetery. 245 of the burials are unidentified and two casualties are commemorated by special memorials. There are also 73 Polish, three Dutch and three non-war (former Commission employees) graves in the cemetery.

Vicci

Vicci Report 19 Nov 2012 21:16

Deaths Sep 1935 (>99%)
Lawrence Philip 86 Chichester 2b 481

age is a bit off though

Mike *

Mike * Report 19 Nov 2012 21:17


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1906

CRABB Richard James Devonport 5b 721
LAWRENCE Philip George Devonport 5b 721
Mullins Aileen Norah M Devonport 5b 721
STONEMAN Mabel Frances Devonport 5b 721

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 19 Nov 2012 21:18

This marriage is right after Aileen died:

Marriages Dec 1946 (>99%)
Carpenter Julia R E Lawrence Surrey S.E. 5g 1426
Lawrence Phillip G Carpenter Surrey S.E. 5g 1426


Rose

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 19 Nov 2012 21:24

Actually born in 1883 as George Philip so the 1948 death fits for age:

Births Jun 1883
LAWRENCE George Philip Dorking 2a 135

Rose

Vicci

Vicci Report 19 Nov 2012 21:31

probate for aileen
Name: Aileen Nora Mary Lawrence
Probate Date: 11 Sep 1947
Death Date: 12 Aug 1946
Death Place: Chichester, England
Registry: Winchester, England

says she was a widow
lving at The Warren West Dean

probate to Eileen Mary Waddell

Brian

Brian Report 19 Nov 2012 22:00

Thank you all. She was described as a widow on the granting of probate in 1946 with administration to her daughter. This should rule out the death for Philip in 1948.
The marriage in Devonport is correct and I have all the details of Arthur's death in Arnhem. He was born 11 Mar 1884 in Abinger, Surrey to Francis Lawrence & Mary Ireland.

Brian

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 19 Nov 2012 22:27

They could have separated and widow was put to avoid will issues. Divorce was very expensive back then.

I don't think it's just a coincidence that there's a death that fits and then a marriage to a Julia Rose Ellen Carpenter (nee Edser) right after Aileen died.

Surrey S.E. is the district for Abinger.

Rose

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 19 Nov 2012 22:36

Aileen had several children. Her last 2 were also registered under a different surname, suggesting she was no longer with Philip.

Rose

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Nov 2012 05:41

Julia R E Edser was born in 1888, Dorking Surrey

She married George Carpenter in 1905

Marriages Sep 1905 (>99%)

CARPENTER George Dorking 2a 389
EDSER Julia Rose E Dorking 2a 389


1911 Census

Name: Julia Carpenter
Age in 1911: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Dorking, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Dorking
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: 2 High Cottages, High Street, Dorking
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 5
Estimated Marriage Year: 1906
Registration district: Dorking
Registration District Number: 36
Sub-registration district: Dorking
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 341
Piece: 3183

George Carpenter 28
Julia Carpenter 23
George Carpenter 3
Annie Carpenter 1



sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Nov 2012 05:50

A Public Family Tree on ancestry, unfortunately without any documentation, has the following .................


Aileen Norah Mary MULLINS
Birth 1887 in Aldershot, Hampshire, England
Death 12 AUG 1946

Family Members
Parents

John Joseph MULLINS 1846 – 1907
Mary Louisa Jane RUSSELL 1860 – 1941


Spouse & Children

Alfred Edward COOMBES <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Doris May COOMBES 1924 – 2009
Vera COOMBES 1927 – 1928

Spouse & Children

Philip George LAWRENCE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Philip Frank LAWRENCE 1906 – 1979
John Walter LAWRENCE 1907 – 1933
Eileen Mary LAWRENCE 1908 – 1994
Arthur Cyril LAWRENCE 1912 – 1944
Violet Phylis LAWRENCE 1913 – 1999
George Victor LAWRENCE 1918 – 1986




this again indicates that the marriage with Philip George broke up sometime between 1918 and 1924


The probate was in the name of Lawrence .............. which indicates that there was no divorce, and that she just lived with Alfred Edward Coombes as man and wife.

Thus Philip George could not marry Julia until after Aileen's death.



I think the evidence is beginning to accumulate that Philip George did not die before Aileen, despite what the probate information says.





sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Nov 2012 05:58

Julia lived to a good old age!


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006 about Julia Rose E Lawrence

Name: Julia Rose E Lawrence
Birth Date: 17 Jan 1888
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1974
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Surrey South Eastern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 17
Page: 1180




I am puzzled by the fact that I cannot find a will for Phillip ................... but it may be that he left an estate to Julia that was not probated until after she died.




sylvia

Brian

Brian Report 20 Nov 2012 06:29

Rose - You're a star. I'm pretty sure you are right. Julia Rose Ellen was born Edser, married George Carpenter in 1905 and had 13 children with him, the last in 1932 when she was 44.
Aileen had Doris M Lawrence in 1924 in Alverstoke, Hampshire and in the same place Vera Lawrence 1927 who died 1928.
Which 2 children are you referring to with a different name?

Brian

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Nov 2012 06:46

Brian


I think I might have proved the case for you.


Here are the birth registrations for those two last children of Aileen's.

Both were registered under TWO surnames ......... Lawrence and Coombes.



Births Sep 1924 (>99%)

Coombes Doris M Mallins Alverstoke 2b 895
Lawrence Doris M Mullins Alverstoke 2b 895


Mallins is the mother's maiden name, mispelled for Mullins




Births Mar 1927 (>99%)

Coombes Vera Mullins Alverstoke 2b 818
Lawrence Vera Mullins Alverstoke 2b 818




This is another indication that Aileen Lawrence was NOT married to Alfred Coombes






sylvia

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 20 Nov 2012 09:30

Brian,

Those last 2, Doris and Vera were also registered under the name Coombes.


Alfred's death?

Deaths Jun 1928
Coombes Alfred E 37 Alverstoke 2b 719

Perhaps this is why Aileen calls herself a "widow".

He was also married to Kate Leader.

Rose

Brian

Brian Report 20 Nov 2012 13:16

Many thanks to all who contributed, particularly Rose & Sylvia. It was a complicated line and I think we have the finite solution. Much appreciated.

Brian