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Brian
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19 Nov 2012 21:02 |
Looking for his death. He was born 1884 in Abinger, Surrey. His son Arthur Cyril Lawrence died in WW2 in 1944 and has a memorial in Singleton Church, Nr. Chichester, West Sussex. His wife Aileen died 1946 in West Dean, Chichester and may be buried in Singleton when a widow. Philip was in the Royal Navy until 1922 so there is a window of 26 years. Anyone in Chichester area could maybe help?
Many thanks Brian
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19 Nov 2012 21:12 |
Do you have Aileen's death cert. that says she was widow, because there's this death?
Deaths Dec 1948 (>99%) Lawrence Phillip G 65 Surrey S. E. 5g 709
Rose
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Mike *
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19 Nov 2012 21:13 |
Is this him ?
Philip Lawrence Birth 1883 in Abinger, Surrey, England parents :
Francis Lawrence 1847 – Mary Ireland
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KathleenBell
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19 Nov 2012 21:15 |
Don't know if it's "your" Philip but there is this death (although it is a couple of years after Aileen, so perhaps not):-
Name: LAWRENCE, Phillip G Registration district: Surrey South Eastern County: Surrey Year of registration: 1948 Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at death: 65 Volume no: 5G Page no: 709
Kath. x
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Vicci
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19 Nov 2012 21:15 |
from cwg.org LAWRENCE, ARTHUR CYRIL
Rank: Staff Serjeant Service No: 7584739 Date of Death: 18/09/1944 Age: 32 Regiment/Service: The Glider Pilot Regiment, A.A.C. 1st Wing Grave Reference 3. D. 12. Cemetery ARNHEM OOSTERBEEK WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Philip F. and Aileen N. M. Lawrence, of Westdean, Chichester, Sussex.
Country: Netherlands Locality: Gelderland Identified Casualties: 1436
Location Information
The city of Arnhem is in the east of the Netherlands, the village of Oosterbeek is 7kms west of Arnhem.
From the A12 motorway DEN HAAG to ARNHEM take exit 25 (Afrit 25) N224 OOSTERBEEK / WOLFHEZE. Follow the signs for OOSTERBEEK. After approx 3.5kms turn right (CWGC Sign) onto the DREYENSEWEG. Continue for approx 2kms and turn left (CWGC sign) onto VAN LIMBURG STIRUMWEG. After approx 1km the cemetery can be found on the left side. The cemetery address is:- Van Limburg Stirumweg 6861 WL Oosterbeek Netherlands GPS Location is:- N 51 59 35 E 05 50 54
Visiting Information
Visitors are advised not to leave possessions lying visible in their car as theft is common at the municipal car park in front of the cemetery
Wheelchair access to this cemetery is possible via the main entrance.
For further information regarding wheelchair access, please contact our Enquiries Section on 01628 507200
Historical Information
Following the Normandy landings of June 1944, the Allied advance through northern Europe was extraordinarily rapid and on 11 September 1944, the Second Army entered the Netherlands just south of Eindhoven, the first Allied troops to set foot in the country since its fall in May 1940.
Their next aim was to cross the Rhine before the Germans had time to reorganise after their recent setbacks, securing crossings over the rivers and canals that stood in their path at Grave, Nijmegen and Arnhem. 'Operation Market Garden' would involve the United States 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions, the Commonwealth 1st Airborne Division and the Polish Parachute Brigade.
On 17 September 1944, the 1st Airborne Division began landing west of Arnhem, but German resistance, bad weather and problems with supplies and reinforcements led to heavy losses, and their objectives were not taken. They were forced to form a perimeter at Oosterbeek which they held stubbornly until 25 September, when it was decided to withdraw the remnants of the division across the lower Rhine.
Arnhem Oosterbeek War Cemetery contains the graves of most of those killed during the September landings, and many of those killed in later fighting in the area.
There are now 1,680 Commonwealth servicemen of the Second World War buried or commemorated in the cemetery. 245 of the burials are unidentified and two casualties are commemorated by special memorials. There are also 73 Polish, three Dutch and three non-war (former Commission employees) graves in the cemetery.
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Vicci
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19 Nov 2012 21:16 |
Deaths Sep 1935 (>99%) Lawrence Philip 86 Chichester 2b 481
age is a bit off though
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Mike *
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19 Nov 2012 21:17 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages Sep 1906 CRABB Richard James Devonport 5b 721 LAWRENCE Philip George Devonport 5b 721 Mullins Aileen Norah M Devonport 5b 721 STONEMAN Mabel Frances Devonport 5b 721
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19 Nov 2012 21:18 |
This marriage is right after Aileen died:
Marriages Dec 1946 (>99%) Carpenter Julia R E Lawrence Surrey S.E. 5g 1426 Lawrence Phillip G Carpenter Surrey S.E. 5g 1426
Rose
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19 Nov 2012 21:24 |
Actually born in 1883 as George Philip so the 1948 death fits for age:
Births Jun 1883 LAWRENCE George Philip Dorking 2a 135
Rose
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Vicci
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19 Nov 2012 21:31 |
probate for aileen Name: Aileen Nora Mary Lawrence Probate Date: 11 Sep 1947 Death Date: 12 Aug 1946 Death Place: Chichester, England Registry: Winchester, England
says she was a widow lving at The Warren West Dean
probate to Eileen Mary Waddell
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Brian
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19 Nov 2012 22:00 |
Thank you all. She was described as a widow on the granting of probate in 1946 with administration to her daughter. This should rule out the death for Philip in 1948. The marriage in Devonport is correct and I have all the details of Arthur's death in Arnhem. He was born 11 Mar 1884 in Abinger, Surrey to Francis Lawrence & Mary Ireland.
Brian
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19 Nov 2012 22:27 |
They could have separated and widow was put to avoid will issues. Divorce was very expensive back then.
I don't think it's just a coincidence that there's a death that fits and then a marriage to a Julia Rose Ellen Carpenter (nee Edser) right after Aileen died.
Surrey S.E. is the district for Abinger.
Rose
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19 Nov 2012 22:36 |
Aileen had several children. Her last 2 were also registered under a different surname, suggesting she was no longer with Philip.
Rose
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SylviaInCanada
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20 Nov 2012 05:41 |
Julia R E Edser was born in 1888, Dorking Surrey
She married George Carpenter in 1905
Marriages Sep 1905 (>99%)
CARPENTER George Dorking 2a 389 EDSER Julia Rose E Dorking 2a 389
1911 Census
Name: Julia Carpenter Age in 1911: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888 Relation to Head: Wife Gender: Female Birth Place: Dorking, Surrey, England Civil parish: Dorking County/Island: Surrey Country: England Street Address: 2 High Cottages, High Street, Dorking Marital Status: Married Years Married: 5 Estimated Marriage Year: 1906 Registration district: Dorking Registration District Number: 36 Sub-registration district: Dorking ED, institution, or vessel: 2 Household schedule number: 341 Piece: 3183
George Carpenter 28 Julia Carpenter 23 George Carpenter 3 Annie Carpenter 1
sylvia
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SylviaInCanada
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20 Nov 2012 05:50 |
A Public Family Tree on ancestry, unfortunately without any documentation, has the following .................
Aileen Norah Mary MULLINS Birth 1887 in Aldershot, Hampshire, England Death 12 AUG 1946
Family Members Parents
John Joseph MULLINS 1846 – 1907 Mary Louisa Jane RUSSELL 1860 – 1941
Spouse & Children
Alfred Edward COOMBES <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Doris May COOMBES 1924 – 2009 Vera COOMBES 1927 – 1928
Spouse & Children
Philip George LAWRENCE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Philip Frank LAWRENCE 1906 – 1979 John Walter LAWRENCE 1907 – 1933 Eileen Mary LAWRENCE 1908 – 1994 Arthur Cyril LAWRENCE 1912 – 1944 Violet Phylis LAWRENCE 1913 – 1999 George Victor LAWRENCE 1918 – 1986
this again indicates that the marriage with Philip George broke up sometime between 1918 and 1924
The probate was in the name of Lawrence .............. which indicates that there was no divorce, and that she just lived with Alfred Edward Coombes as man and wife.
Thus Philip George could not marry Julia until after Aileen's death.
I think the evidence is beginning to accumulate that Philip George did not die before Aileen, despite what the probate information says.
sylvia
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SylviaInCanada
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20 Nov 2012 05:58 |
Julia lived to a good old age!
England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006 about Julia Rose E Lawrence
Name: Julia Rose E Lawrence Birth Date: 17 Jan 1888 Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1974 Age at Death: 86 Registration district: Surrey South Eastern Inferred County: Surrey Volume: 17 Page: 1180
I am puzzled by the fact that I cannot find a will for Phillip ................... but it may be that he left an estate to Julia that was not probated until after she died.
sylvia
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Brian
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20 Nov 2012 06:29 |
Rose - You're a star. I'm pretty sure you are right. Julia Rose Ellen was born Edser, married George Carpenter in 1905 and had 13 children with him, the last in 1932 when she was 44. Aileen had Doris M Lawrence in 1924 in Alverstoke, Hampshire and in the same place Vera Lawrence 1927 who died 1928. Which 2 children are you referring to with a different name?
Brian
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SylviaInCanada
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20 Nov 2012 06:46 |
Brian
I think I might have proved the case for you.
Here are the birth registrations for those two last children of Aileen's.
Both were registered under TWO surnames ......... Lawrence and Coombes.
Births Sep 1924 (>99%)
Coombes Doris M Mallins Alverstoke 2b 895 Lawrence Doris M Mullins Alverstoke 2b 895
Mallins is the mother's maiden name, mispelled for Mullins
Births Mar 1927 (>99%)
Coombes Vera Mullins Alverstoke 2b 818 Lawrence Vera Mullins Alverstoke 2b 818
This is another indication that Aileen Lawrence was NOT married to Alfred Coombes
sylvia
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20 Nov 2012 09:30 |
Brian,
Those last 2, Doris and Vera were also registered under the name Coombes.
Alfred's death?
Deaths Jun 1928 Coombes Alfred E 37 Alverstoke 2b 719
Perhaps this is why Aileen calls herself a "widow".
He was also married to Kate Leader.
Rose
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Brian
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20 Nov 2012 13:16 |
Many thanks to all who contributed, particularly Rose & Sylvia. It was a complicated line and I think we have the finite solution. Much appreciated.
Brian
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