Find Ancestors

thanks for that I will keep trying.

Geoffrey, you're not at a dead end until you've exhausted every avenue. As suggested, get his birth certificate for his actual date of birth - that can then possibly be checked against death records.

Shirley,you have got the hang of it.you have got to the same stage as myself.now you see why I am at a dead end.thanks for your help.

i have 3 birth certs pre 1920 where the parents weren't married but the births are reg as if they were. In this case they did marry after the 3rd child was born .

So it would seem Arthur lived with Alice and the births were reg as if they were married, but when the last child was born they had parted but the birth was still reg as if they were married but he is recorded as deceased.

Unless of course he did go abroad and died there and Alice was aware of his death

thanks to everyone for you help.arthur ambrose is the one born Coventry .his father was a shoemaker with a business in Birmingham.my mother and uncle used to tell me there dad was a shoemaker. anyway after the 1891 census there seems to be no record of him in either marriage or deaths,so im thinking did he leave the country.his name appears on the birth certificates of the children.

Well they never married as no marriage record has been found. It may be that the relationship had ended but the last birth was reg with father deceased as a face saver.

Geoffrey, could you confirm where you believe Arthur Ambrose Penn to be from? If it's the Warwickshire area then I would strongly recommend ordering that birth certificate to ascertain his actual date of birth - that could be a big help in tracing a death record.

You must consider the possibility that this woman was economical with the truth

You state that this man was 'born 1876', but have given us nothing to back up your assertion

Do you have ALL of the birth certs on which this man is named?

WHO registered the births (apart from the one on which he was supposedly 'deceased')?

Please reply ON HERE

pm from Geoffrey:

"thanks for your help.my grandmother was alice Margaret eve,my mother born 1911 in Gloucester,alice at the time was unmarried.she had three more children after on birth cert father was Arthur ambrose.my uncle born in 1920 has on his cert father deceased.there is no marriage or death cert for Arthur.could he be your American."

Geoffrey, I posted last week (see page 1) "From poking about UK & US census, the one born in Hackney moved to America with Winifred - that must be his draft card I found above." so I think that it was the other Arthur ambrose who went to the US.

I also said not to believe everything that is on certificates.

Geoffrey - don't take what is written on certificates as 100% true! People often fibbed about someone being deceased rather than admit something more embarassing, i.e. having been dumped for a younger lover! Or sometimes it may be said to cover up a child born out of wedlock - more socially acceptable back then to be a widowed mother than an unwed mother.

It's not uncommon to see people claim on census that they are widowed but their late spouse can be found alive and well with another partner!

Also, a child born to a widow (even years after her husband's death) may have her late husband named as the father. Doesn't help us but that was the convention.

Referring back to MC's post.............

From GlosBMD site

EVE Alice Margaret EVE EVE BALDWIN 1885 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 48 298


1911 England Census

Name: Alice Margaret Eve
Age in 1911: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Civil parish: Gloucester
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address: 53 Howard Street, Gloucester
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Gloucester
Registration District Number: 325
Sub-registration district: Gloucester Southern
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Household schedule number: 10
Piece: 15319
Household Members:
Name Age
George Wills Eve 56
Alice Margaret Eve 25
George William Charles Eve 24

What was the mother's name?

What was Arthur's occupation?

Why do you think he was born in 1876?

thanks to everyone trying to find Arthur ambrose penn,ronald ambrose penn was my uncle he was born Cheltenham 1920,on his birth cert father was deceased.so Arthur ambrose penn must have died the 9 months prior to ronalds birth.

There is no marriage in England/Wales for surname Penn to surname Eve

You say the man was born 1876..............where?

Do you have the birth cert of any of the children?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006

Name: Arthur J Penn
Birth Date: abt 1915
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1916
Age at Death: 1
Registration district: Cheltenham
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 497

???????

UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
Name: R A Penn
Camp Location: Bystrice, Czech Republic

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006

Name: Ronald Ambrose Penn
Birth Date: 29 Jun 1920
Date of Registration: Jul 2004
Age at Death: 84
Registration district: Oxfordshire
Inferred County: Oxfordshire
Register Number: G05D
District and Subdistrict: 695/1G
Entry number: 6

British Army Service Records 1760-1915

First name(s): Arthur Ambrose
Last name: PENN
Calculated year of birth: 1874
Parish of birth: Birmingham
Town of birth: Birmingham
County of birth: Warwickshire
Age at attestation: 18 years 4 months
Attestation date: 14 March 1892
Attestation corps: 3RD BATTALION R WARWICKS REGIMENT
Attestation soldier number: 4255
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps: Royal Warwickshire Regiment - 6th Foot
Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO96 / 114 / 387

There's actually very little info, no family details. Didn't appear to serve overseas.
Was discharged as "totally unfit" May 1899.

I think this is the chap we're looking for, in 1891:

PENN, John Head Married M 53 1838 Boot Maker Coventry, Warwickshire
PENN, Mary A Wife Married F 53 1838 Coventry, Warwickshire
PENN, Arthur A Son Single M 15 1876 Errand HandBirmingham, Warwickshire

Piece: 2415 Folio: 56 Page: 1
Registration District: Aston
Civil Parish: Bordesley
Municipal Borough: Birmingham

Address: 11, Green Lane, Bordesley, Birmingham County: Warwickshire

1891
Name: John Penn
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A Penn
Gender: Male
Where born: Coventry, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
Town: Bordesley
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 79
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2415
Folio: 56
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
John Penn 53
Mary A Penn 53
Arthur A Penn 15

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2415; Folio: 56; Page: 1; GSU roll: 6097525.

From poking about UK & US census, the one born in Hackney moved to America with Winifred - that must be his draft card I found above.

Can't find a marriage for the one born Aston that fits.