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pm from Geoffrey:

"thanks for your help.my grandmother was alice Margaret eve,my mother born 1911 in Gloucester,alice at the time was unmarried.she had three more children after on birth cert father was Arthur ambrose.my uncle born in 1920 has on his cert father deceased.there is no marriage or death cert for Arthur.could he be your American."

Geoffrey, I posted last week (see page 1) "From poking about UK & US census, the one born in Hackney moved to America with Winifred - that must be his draft card I found above." so I think that it was the other Arthur ambrose who went to the US.

I also said not to believe everything that is on certificates.

You must consider the possibility that this woman was economical with the truth

You state that this man was 'born 1876', but have given us nothing to back up your assertion

Do you have ALL of the birth certs on which this man is named?

WHO registered the births (apart from the one on which he was supposedly 'deceased')?

Please reply ON HERE

Geoffrey, could you confirm where you believe Arthur Ambrose Penn to be from? If it's the Warwickshire area then I would strongly recommend ordering that birth certificate to ascertain his actual date of birth - that could be a big help in tracing a death record.

Well they never married as no marriage record has been found. It may be that the relationship had ended but the last birth was reg with father deceased as a face saver.

thanks to everyone for you help.arthur ambrose is the one born Coventry .his father was a shoemaker with a business in Birmingham.my mother and uncle used to tell me there dad was a shoemaker. anyway after the 1891 census there seems to be no record of him in either marriage or deaths,so im thinking did he leave the country.his name appears on the birth certificates of the children.

i have 3 birth certs pre 1920 where the parents weren't married but the births are reg as if they were. In this case they did marry after the 3rd child was born .

So it would seem Arthur lived with Alice and the births were reg as if they were married, but when the last child was born they had parted but the birth was still reg as if they were married but he is recorded as deceased.

Unless of course he did go abroad and died there and Alice was aware of his death

Shirley,you have got the hang of it.you have got to the same stage as myself.now you see why I am at a dead end.thanks for your help.

Geoffrey, you're not at a dead end until you've exhausted every avenue. As suggested, get his birth certificate for his actual date of birth - that can then possibly be checked against death records.

thanks for that I will keep trying.