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Thank you Catherine.

Possible death for Thomas?

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006 about Thomas Chapman
Name: Thomas Chapman
Birth Date: abt 1874
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1925
Age at Death: 51
Registration district: South Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 1

there are two other births O'Brien/Chapman born after 1911:-

Births Sep 1912 (>99%)
O'Brien Elizabeth Chapman Manchester 8d 336

Births Mar 1915 (>99%)
O'Brien Lilian Chapman Manchester 8d 332


I can't see O'Brien family in 1911 either?

Just a thought maybe Thomas and Emily are brother and sister because just realised I haven't found the O'Briens on 1911 census. hmmm oh eck.

Frances

Gins I will send for that death cert in New Year can only verify one way or another. Thank you.

Frances

Sorry only just getting back to you helpful folk, yes Thomas had a sister who married William O'Brien, also a sister Hannah who married a John Edward Froggatt then a Joseph Carr. Seems they were a very fickle lot haha.

My line is via James Chapman born 1870 brother of Thomas, I have certs for all siblings births, marriages and deaths and with my chrissy present pennies thought I'd try for a full house as Thomas been elusive since he was 13 on 1891 census.

Frances

Drattttt !!! - I can only view the marriage register images up to 1895 !!

Dea x

Having another look at posting, I have just realised that Thomas did have a sister called Emily, so maybe the marriage is for her?

Looks like you might be on to something Catherine - look what I found ???

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference

O'BRIEN William CHAPMAN Emily Manchester, St. Philip Manchester 93/7/297

I will go and see if I can view the cert.............

Dea x

That's interesting!
Had a look for a possible marriage for the couple in 1901 census and found this:-

Marriages Jun 1897 (>99%)
Barber Jane Manchester 8d 450
xxxxxx Chapman Emily Manchester 8d 450
Hulston Robert Manchester 8d 450
xxxxxx O'Brien William Manchester 8d 450

......................that's a bit of a coincidence, especially as 1897 would make the couple married for 14yrs in 1911 which is the length of time, Thomas and Emily state they were married for.
Don't know what to make of that ?

I keep coming back to this one:-

1901 England Census about Emily Obrian
Name: Emily Obrian
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Obrian
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 127
Piece: 3744
Folio: 114
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
William Obrian 28
xxxxxxxxxx Emily Obrian 27
xxxxxxxxxx Sarah E Obrian 7 (on original age looks to be 2)
xxxxxxxxxx Hannah Obrian 10 Months
James Froggatkin 21
Hannah Froggatkin 21
James Froggatkin 1
...............................................................................................

There is a possible birth that would fit with each of the children noted in 1911 census so maybe worth looking into further?

Births Dec 1898 (>99%)
O'BRIEN Sarah Ellen Manchester 8d 221

Births Sep 1900 (>99%)
O'Brien Hannah Manchester 8d 197

Births Jun 1904 (>99%)
O'Brien Emily Manchester 8d 217

Births Jun 1908 (>99%)
O'Brien Mary Ellen Manchester 8d 249
Births Sep 1909 (>99%)
O'Brien Mary Margaret Manchester 8d 245
Births Mar 1910 (>99%)
O'BRIEN Mary Jane Manchester 8d 190

Births Sep 1902 (>99%)
O'Brien Daniel Manchester 8d 209


Births Sep 1908 (>99%)
O'Brien William Manchester 8d 206

I wonder if its worth a punt on this death cert?


England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
about Emily Chapman
Name: Emily Chapman
Birth Date: abt 1876
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1955
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 283

Is Thomas your direct ancestor?
If so, when did he die?
Also, which of his children is your direct ancestor?
Thank-you

Thank you ladies food for thought, will appreciate any further snippets that come your way, but you have been very generous in your search time.

Frances

Will update if any further progress made.

Looking at the 1911 census it appears that John Austin Thwaites married Emily Robins. There is also a Thomas and Florence Chapman who have a daughter called Eva Taylor. So that seems to eliminate the 1897 marriage in Leeds.

There's always the chance that Thomas and Emily were never legally married, the children would then have been registered in Emily's name.

Even though the couple state that they were both born Manchester and alll the children born Manchester doesn't mean that they were married in Manchester.
As they state they were married for 14yrs. in 1911 census that would make their marriage 1897 +/- 1yr. This is the only marriage I can see for that time for a Thomas Chapman married to an Emily:-

Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas Leeds 9b 967
ROBINS Emily Leeds 9b 967
Taylor Florence Leeds 9b 967
Thwaites John Austin Leeds 9b 967

Once again I can't really be sure not knowing mothers maiden name is a bind.

Frances, do you know if they had any more children after 1911?

Hi MarieCeleste thank you for your contribution, I had seen that from family sheet via Ancestry but nowhere can I find a mariage around that time or any of the births for children in Manchester area that seem likely.

Thank you once again
Frances

No sorry don't know her maiden name that is why I was going tosend for cert. if I can find it. :-(

Just for background info for us, on the 1911 Thomas & Emily had been married 14 years and those 6 children were all that had been born. Thomas was a labourer for a glass manufacturer. Everyone listed as born Manchester.

Frances - do you now what Emily's maiden name was?

How have you made the connection from the Thomas in the 1911 to the Thomas in 1891 & 1881? There's a slight variance on their ages which isn't too uncommon ....