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This is the marriage of his parents, you will need to wait for the cert to be absolutely sure of their father's names.

Marriages Jun 1912 (>99%)

Joyce John T Lock Birmingham 6d 36
Lock Martha R Joyce Birmingham 6d 36

Really, will it name Joyce's Father too??
I really am sorry about this
I am new to all this info searching
It would be good to know his bro n sis names
so i know i have the correct one

Thankyou really appreciate your help :)

Yes thats the cert i have sent off for on thurs
I will have to wait won't I.

I will check out the link you said too
to find my Gt Grandfathers childrens names

Thankyou

Annette the marriage cert of John and Martha should have John's father's name on it, that will mean you will be able to look for him in census. Also there 'may' be an address that you can find him on in the 1911 census, (and occupation)

As there are two births around the same time for a 'John T Joyce' in Birmingham ( that Lancashire Ann has posted on this thread ) it is important that you know the right father's name.

Annette

If youve got access to the 1891 census,,

Look for Mark Joyce,
wife Mary Joyce......

John T Joyce is a son,

and a Catherine Hogan,,an aunt bn Ireland......

The family are on the 1901 census also...

but there are other possibles, that's why you need the cert :-) middle initials are not always included on census

1891 England Census
about John Joyce Name: John Joyce
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Joyce
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Joyce
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: Lady Wood
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2373
Folio: 95
Page Number: 31
Household Members: Name Age
John Joyce 30
Mary Ann Joyce 28
William Joyce 8
John Joyce 5
Catherine Joyce 2
Lawrence Joyce 8/12

I just went on freebdm, the server was down :(

I have had a message to say that a catherine is linked to John Joyce?
I will wait for cert tho because my GT Grandfather was born in 1912 the
year John T Senior got married.
I assumed he would be the eldest given the time

Thankyou very much for your help i will perservere with it

I keep coming back to the 1891 census you have found Rambling Rose and have checked the military records. He is John Thomas Joyce and gives next of kin as father John and brothers William (older) and Lawrence and Harry (younger). However, it then gives a marriage to Ellen Elizabeth Bates in 1905 with children Willian John b 1906, Alice Elizabeth b 1907, Florence Catherine born 1909, Harry Edward born 1911 & Lilian May born 1913 (children are all born Swansea). So not so sure :-(

As you say need the marriage certificate

That is very interesting
He may have been married twice then?
Although i do not know how my Grandfather popped up in the middle
of all the other children lol!
Maybe its the two births intertwining and getting me in a tizz

William the eldest of the first family may have called himself John????

Annette don't think there is a second marriage, there is more than one John T Joyce, so almost certainly seperate families with no connection, so you DO have to wait for the cert.

The John thomas Joyce whose parents were John and Mary.
he joined the army in 1903 and named his brothers as william the elder.
William is infact I think the William Henry Smith who the Joyce family are living with in Swansea in 1911..
John states he is half brother to head of house.
William Smith with the Joyce family in 1901 as stepson.

If his dad was Mark Joyce then he was born @ 1863/4
Mark Joyce age 79 of Jamaica Row Birmingham died 12/3/1943
he left probate to John Thomas Joyce occupation Viewer sum of £212 4s 11d.

Maryb.

Thanks for that mary
The marriage cert of My GT Grandfather 1912 ahould
name his father.
It will probably say John!!

Hopefully if your theory is correct then we may have uncovered
a wide range of family

Thankyou

in the census 1891 census that Rose posted and Mary referred to for 1901 with William as a stepson - in 1901 as William Smith:-

this is probably the John & Mary marriage - which is AFTER John was born

Marriages Jun 1888 (>99%)
Joyce John Birmingham 6d 129
Smith Mary Birmingham 6d 129