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Or there is this (I know it is a Herbert John Wheeler, but - Emma Pitt!, got to be the witnesses surely)

Marriages Dec 1889 (>99%)
Corner Henry W. Ham 4a 6
Digby Maria West Ham 4a 6
Pitt Emma Julia W. Ham 4a 6 >>>>>>>>>>>>
Pratt Abraham W.Ham 4a 6
Wheeler Herbert John W. Ham 4a 6>>>>>>>>>>>

Now that is a possibility - maybe the search is back on for a death for Alfred James Pitt, as it now looks like they could be 2 people. Unless my earlier theory is correct and he 'jumped ship' then used another name!

Like looking for a needle in a haystack, but if you know it is there.... somewhere.......

I have the Pitt/Naptin marriage certificate.

5th March 1905 St Johns Church, Stratford.

Alfred James Pitt, age 35, bachelor, seaman, 6 Chant Street. Father Thomas Pitt, seaman.

Elizabeth Martha Naptin, 25, widow, 41 Pitchford Street, Stratford. Father Robert Goouch, labourer.

Witnesses: Emma Wheeler and Herbert L Wheeler

Maybe Martha got together with Alfred Holder because Alfred Pitt went back to sea?

Mmmm cause of death does not seem accidental.

The reason I wonder whether Alfred is the same person is something I had to clarify about my g g grandfather. He was born (illegitimately), his mother married when he was about 2 and he was found in some census records under the name of his stepfather - but not with him as far as I can see. He married in his registered birth surname also his death was registered in his birth surname but on the cert shows "otherwise ............." because it was one of his brothers (half-brother) who gave the information.

What if a similar situation applied to Alfred? (MarieCeleste mentioned 'known as' on 23/1/2013 post) But what if he was Holder but used Pitt when he married - perhaps he only found out afterwards he was really Holder and on official documents (births of children), the correct name was given. Or he knew he was Holder but just used Pitt because he always used Pitt. Also I agree perhaps he did not want the responsibility for Naptin offspring. If their mother needed to prove who she was after her marriage what documents would they ask for - especially if her children were going to be 'cared' for in an institution? What could she prove - legally? Her birth, her first marriage to Naptin, births of their children and her subsequent marriage to Alfred. If she said Holder, what proof would she have? Similarly her re-marriage showed Pitt? When she married Vandersteen what documents would the Registrar ask for – I presume previous legal documents, don’t know what it would be –and the only one she could produce would be in the name of Pitt. Maybe she had to explain to the Registrar in 1960 about him really being Holder, and death registered as Holder. Perhaps because she was married to ‘Pitt’ on the new marriage it had to be shown as Pitt!

Just some thoughts because I have various ancestors who seem to have had more than one surname for different reasons – gave me some trouble ‘pinpointing’ them but got there in the end.

As for the death cert, I have no idea what the additional part means. I will have to wait for it to be clarified by the registrar as I have no idea how I would find out otherwise.

The cause of death shown is bronchopneumonia and influenza.

Hi JannieAnnie,

I have considered that Pitt and Holder may be the same person, the difficulty is proving it.

My current theory is that she married Pitt but was seeing Holder at around the same time. If she left Pitt to set up home with Holder, Frank Holder could have actually been Pitts son which could explain why he and the Naptin children are in workhouses in 1911 but Rose is with her parents (ie, Holder did not want the children which were not his).

It is strange that Elizabeth/Martha omits the Pitt name from Frank Holders birth certificate but uses it for other records such as the workhouses.

It is all very confusing :-S

HI

This is the first time I have seen this thread and thought I would just throw this in regarding Alfred Pitt / Alfred Holder. I think they are one and the same person.

Thinking about the death cert. Can you work out the cause of death - the words 'causing the body to be buried' could this mean an accident occurred? Is that why the death was registered on production of a statutory declaration rather than certified by a doctor or by a coroner?

The addition to Alfred Holders death cert is very difficult to read but this is what I have so far.

An entry no. 586067. For widow of deceased. Read causing the body to be buried corrected on the 2nd. We (word unreadable) by me (name unreadable). Registration on production of a statutory declaration made by Elizabeth Holder otherwise Naptin (informant) and of Florence (word unreadable).

I am contacting the Registrar at Stratford registry Office to see if he can tell me what it says in its entirety and what it was for.

Update after today’s visit to Stratford Archives.

The records for West Ham Industrial School show that Edward and Henry Naptin were admitted on 18th April 1910 and were to remain there until their 16th birthdays.

On 12th August 1915 Edward Naptin was sent to farm service in Pembroke where he remained until at least 26th March 1919.

Henry Naptin was discharged from the school by the Home Secretary on 7th June 1912 suffering from an illness (unreadable in the notes). In September of the same year he is at St Annes Home in Herne Bay and a note is made that his photo has been sent to the paper. He was then sent to the Aldersbrook Union until 20th May 2013 when he was discharged to live with his mother. By 13th April 1914 he is employed as a lather boy at a hairdressers in Stratford.

Notes for Elizabeth Pitt (mother) are:

25/12/1910 – Workhouse
09/02/1911 – 55 Havelock Road, West Ham
09/02/1911 – Daughter Lily Naptin at Princess Mary Village Homes
02/01/1912 – 131 Pelly Road, Plaistow
20/05/1913 – 7 Park Place, High Street, Stratford
10/04/1914 – 2 Park Place, High Street, Stratford
13/04/1914 – 17 Callum/Cullum Street, Stratford
25/06/1914 – 33 Callum/Cullum Street, Angel Lane, Stratford
29/09/1914 – Father joins army

I will be returning next week to look for Frank Pitts records but would appreciate it if anyone can find anything else which may link in. I have tried searching for the 1914 Army records but have had no luck on FMP. I am presuming that the father they are referring to is Alfred Holder, not Alfred Pitt.

Thanks Chris, just looking now

HOLDER first names ALFRED Burial date 14 Nov 1932 Authority London Borough of Newham Location West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

(above on below link, credits needed)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

Chris :)

Just a quick note.

On the army service records (Dated 7/08/1901) Alfred Holder states that he has been living at 19 Tenby Road West Ham for the past 12 months which would cover the 1901 census dates. I have checked and, although I can find Tenby Road I can't see a number 19.

I have just had it confirmed by Frank Holders youngest son that my Alfred Holder died in 1932

I see your point. I have just called my Mum and she is going to call some of the older living relatives and check the info I have been given.

The only other Alfred Holder death I can see is West Ham 1954 aged 70

Jayne, I've just found this marriage:

Civil Registration event: Marriage

MarriageFinder: Alfred Holder married Emma Noakes

Name: HOLDER, Alfred
Registration district: West Ham
County: Essex
Year of registration: 1916
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name: Noakes
Volume no: 4A
Page no: 737

Name: NOAKES, Emma
Registration district: West Ham
County: Essex
Year of registration: 1916
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name: Holder
Volume no: 4A
Page no: 737

She could be the E Holder on the death cert.

MarieCeleste - Just his age at death

Thanks Marie

They are the only Army records I could find for an Alfred Holder of the right age and place.

Also, despite there being 2 Alfred Holders on the 1911 the only one on the 1901 with similar age/location is the one you have just listed.

As Martha/Elizabeth and Alfred Holder did not marry is there any way I can find out who he was? It really is starting to drive me mad.

If Alfred Pitt and Alfred Holder are 2 different people why can I not find a Pitt death or a Holder birth which would match up? :-(

I am going to Stratford Heritage tomorrow so can spend the day looking up records :-D

EDIT - Edited names, got confused :-S

Jayne - does it have a date of birth on Alfred Holder's death certificate, or just his age at death?

I think this is the 1911 for Alfred Holder who the service records belong to:

HOLDER, Thomas Head Married M 62 1849 Blacksmiths Striker Wateringbury Kent
HOLDER, Leah Wife Married37 years F 58 1853 Biringham Staffs
HOLDER, Alfred Son Single M 27 1884 Dock Labour Plaistow Essex
HOLDER, Fredrick Son M 14 1897 Errand Boy Pawn Plaistow Essex

RG number: RG14 Piece: 9454
Reference: RG14PN9454 RG78PN507B RD188 SD3 ED44 SN307
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: Plaistow
Enumeration District: 44
Parish: West Ham

Address: 21 Beatrice Street Plaistow County: Essex

He's with the same parents in 1901 where his occupation is General Labourer which matches the occupation on the service record.

EDIT: Yes, the service record does say he works in a market and your Alfred was a market porter in 1911.

I'm still not convinced, the other Alfred (Thomas & Leah's son) could have married someone who's name began with "E".

The births were registered by E Holder, mother.

The occupation on the service record is that he is a general labourer for a Mr Norman of Stratford Market.

Jayne, I certainly wouldn't take for granted that the service record is the right one especially as there was another chap of the right age who it could belong to. What was the occupation on the service record?

I would very strongly suspect that the reason she remarried in the name of Pitt was because there had never been a legal marriage to a Holder.

Who registered the births?