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Please can someone help me work out my great great grandmothers very confusing story?

Martha Elizabeth Goouch was born 23/10/1880

In 1899 she married Harry Naptin and had 2 children, Henry b 1899 and Lily b 1903. In 1901 she was living in Plevna Street, Poplar. Her husband died in 1903 and in the 1911 census her children are in institutions, one in Ongar, Essex, the other in Chertsey, Surrey.


In 1905 Martha married Alfred PITT (Her name on the marriage cert is Martha E Naptin).

Now it gets confusing.

She had children Frank Holder b 1908 (my great grandfather) and Rose Holder b 1910 (notice the name change?) - I do not have the birth certs here, my mum is looking for them.

In the 1911 Census she is living at 27 Eve Road Stratford with Alfred HOLDER (husband aged 30) and Rose Holder (Frank is on the census but is crossed out so must be somewhere else?). She says they have been married for 3 years and that she has 2 children.

She had 5 more children, Alfred b 1911, Albert b 1914, Violet b 1915, Richard b 1917 and George b 1919.

In 1960 Martha married Peter Vandersteen (name on certificate Martha E Pitt)

I cannot find a death for an Alfred PITT or a marriage to an Alfred HOLDER and am wondering if they could be the same person.

I also cannot find Frank Holder b 1908 on any 1911 census.

If anyone has any ideas on Marthas very confusing life I would love to hear them.

Thank you
:-)

Just posting that 1911 so we can see what we're working from:

HOLDER, Alfred Head Married M 30 1881 Vegetable Market Porter Stratford Essex
HOLDER, Elizabeth Wife Married 3 years F 30 1881 Cubitt Poplar
HOLDER, Rose Daughter Single F 1 (15 MONTHS) 1910 West Ham Essex

RG number: RG14 Piece: 9422
Reference: RG14PN9422 RG78PN507A RD188 SD3 ED12 SN49
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: Plaistow
Enumeration District: 12
Parish: West Ham

Address: 27 Eve Road Stratford County: Essex

That's them :-)

Please give us all the info about Alfred Pitt from the marriage certificate, age, address, occupation, father's details ...

Will help us check her spouses.

I don't have the certs. My mum has them and is looking for them but has just moved house.

I know I am not helpful, sorry :-(

Maybe I should wait until she has unpacked them.

If mum has them somewhere might be worth waiting until she's unpacked (a lot cheaper too than re-ordering them from GRO).

In the meantime, the fact Martha remarried as Pitt in 1960 confirms she never married a Holder (or she should have married in that name). So, she either lived with Alfred Holder and took his name or they were one and the same man.

Will dig around a bit.

Thank you. I am sorry to be such a nuisance and hope I don't have to reorder them.

If anyone finds anything with the limited info that would be great. If not I will add the info as soon as I have it.

Jayne, you're not a nuisance at all!

I have just found a Frank Pitt b 1908 in an institution in West Ham. Might be my great grandfather?

PITT, Frank
Institution: West Ham Union Infirmary, WEST HAM INFIRMARY

PITT, Frank Patient M 3 1908

RG number: RG14
Piece: 9674
Reference: RG14PN9674 RD188 SD9 ED41 SN9999
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: North Leyton
Enumeration District: 41
Parish: Low Leyton
Address: Whipps Cross Road Leytonstone N E County:

That looks a very strong possibility.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Harry Napton Name: Harry Napton
[Harry Naptin]
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Age: 21
Spouse Name: Martha Elizabeth Goouch
Spouse Age: 18
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 21 May 1899
Parish: Poplar All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Henry Napton
Spouse Father Name: Robert Goouch
Register Type: Parish Register

Is there anyway to check custody records? Marthas daughter Lily is in PRINCESS MARY VILLAGE HOMES in 1911. the info on the home is:

‘The purpose of the said Institution shall be the bringing up, including board, lodging, clothing and education of female children who shall have had a parent convicted of crime, … who have no home or who are otherwise circumstanced as to be peculiarly exposed to demoralizing influence’

Could Martha have been convicted of a crime?

I have emailed Essex records office t try to find details of Henry Naptins admission to the West Ham Industrial school.

The reply was "As the school in 1911 was administered by the West Ham Poor Law Union, it is possible that there may be records of the pupils among those of the Guardians of the Poor. We do not hold any records of the West Ham Union."

Does anyone know how to access these records?

I am waiting replies from Surrey records regarding Lily May Naptin and the London Borough of Newham Archives regarding Frank Pitt.

Marriage of Alfred James Pitt to Elizabeth Martha Naptin.

Maryb

Just to add for the 1905 wedding PITT/NAPTIN the records show Elizabeth Martha, so that wedding may not be her at all

Name Elizabeth Martha Naptin
Year of Marriage 1905
Quarter of Marriage Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District West Ham
Registration County Essex
Spouse's Surname Only available for records after 1912
Volume Number 4A
Volume Page 136


Name Alfred James Pitt
Year of Marriage 1905
Quarter of Marriage Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District West Ham
Registration County Essex
Spouse's Surname Only available for records after 1912
Volume Number 4A
Volume Page 136

Just a quick question, the NAPTIN births do you know of these for sure or just what records you have pulled up? As I don't know if you know London well but I am from there and I found when searching my tree for poplar way that mile end old town appeared and it was a case of a the next street would be different registry offices it was madness, and some of London appeared as Middlesex also as I saw this and wasn't sure and didn't want to confuse:


Birth Record
Name Edward Philip Naptin
Year of Registration 1901
Quarter of Registration Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Mile End Old Town
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 1C
Volume Page 491

Also appears in 1911 in Ongar with Henry in a school:

Name Edward Naptin
Relationship to Head of Household Inmate
Gender M
Age 9
Estimated Year of Birth 1902
Occupation School Part Time
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth London Poplar
Enumerator Information
Address Industrial School
Parish Fyfield
Type of Building School
Number of Rooms 14
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN9809 RG78PN518 RD190 SD1 ED6 SN61
Administrative County Essex
Registration District Ongar
Registration Sub District Bobbingworth
Enumeration District 6
Reference Information
Folio 123
Page 2
Piece 9809
RD number 190
SD number 1
ED number 6
Schedule 61
© brightsolid online publishing ltd

And the lily in 1911 is lily may not lily b and again it's a school she is in

Name Lily May Naptin
Relationship to Head of Household Inmate
Gender F
Age 7
Estimated Year of Birth 1904
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Unknown
Enumerator Information
Address Crouch Oak Road Addlestone
Parish Chertsey
Town Addlestone
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN3012 RD32 SD2 ED18 SN9999
Administrative County Surrey
Registration District Chertsey
Registration Sub District Chertsey
Enumeration District 18
Reference Information
Folio 37
Page 7
Piece 3012
RD number 32
SD number 2
ED number 18
Schedule 9999
© brightsolid online publishing ltd

And the west ham union records (workhouse) records are held at: Stratford library London

http://www.newham.gov.uk/entertainmentandleisure/libraries/librarydetails/newhamarchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm

Thank you for all of the information.

The information on the Pitt/Naptin marriage and the Naptin births have been given to me by living family members who remember their grandmother Martha (although not their grandfather as he died in 1932). They also mention other relationships although Martha did not marry all of them. She often varied between Martha and Elizabeth depending on who she was with.

The b following Lily in the first message is for born. She was Lily M

Births Dec 1903
Naptin Lily May Poplar 1c 626

I was not aware of an Edward or a Henry so will ask relatives again (although most of them are pretty old now).

Sorry, I meant to say Edward, not Henry :-)