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Hmmm I would assume that in census/ electoral rolls you could vary names but surely not on marriage lines? Do you have the 1905 lines? As it would show formerly goouch possibly?

I also wonder if after Harry died, she had to go into the work house? Hence why the children were taken in to care of guardianship? Are you far from London? As theses records could be interesting

Thank you to everyone who has looked up records for me.

I have phoned Stratford and they also hold some records for Fyfield Industrial school. Visit is booked for next Tuesday. Maybe I will find some answers there :-)

I have also reordered Certificates for Frank Holder (1908) birth, Alfred Holder death and the Pitt/Naptin marriage as it is probably quicker than waiting for people to unpack and find certificates.

I will add info as I get it.

Just to clarify, you can't take names on marriage certificates as being 100% accurate (or any other info on them for that matter).

People may well marry in the name they were known as, not what they were registered as at birth.

The following link is an excellent resource as to what to expect (or not!) on certificates:
http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL2

Because names are frequently transposed I' d be quite confident that the two marriages are the same woman.

Baptism (Find My Past)
Day:23
Month:June
Year:1901
Forename:Edward
Othernames:Philip
Surname:Naptin
Fathers forenames:Henry
Fathers occupation:Labourer
Mothers forenames:Martha Elizabeth
Birth date:
Address:246 Manchester Road
Location of church:Isle of Dogs
Parish:St John, Cubitt Town
Church address:East Ferry Road
Entry No:671
Source Ref:X085/180
Original Note:Alleged Birth Date 7th June
Record source:Docklands Ancestors

(saw the above)

Chris :)

MarieCeleste, thank you for that link. A very interesting website and certainly clarified a couple of things. I have had problems with name changes before, it can get incredibly annoying :-)

Chris Ho, that is a great find, thank you so much.

I've found that site very useful Jayne.

I just came across Lily May's baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Lily May Naptin
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: 22 Nov 1903 (baptised 04 Dec 1903)
Father's Name: Harry Naptin
Mother's Name: Margaret Naptin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

She was actually born in the Poplar workhouse. It's noted that she was legitimate. Harry's name has been inserted above as though an afterthought, perhaps he'd already died by then?

The mother's name is clearly written as Margaret, but I'd guess it was an error. She was admitted from the Poplar parish.

Another good find. I don't know how you find these. I use FMP and haven't seen any of this.

Harry died in the 1st Q of 1901, as you can see Lily wasn't born until November.

Jayne, that one was from Ancestry.

If Harry died 1901 then who was Lily May's father?

EDIT: Forget that! It was 1903 he died so Martha may not have even known she was pregnant when he died.

Sorry, I meant 1903. He died 1st Quarter so Martha probably didn't even know she was pregnant

Snap!!

I have received 2 of the certificates.

Frank Holder birth cert reads:

Father - Alfred Holder, Market Porter
Mother - Elizabeth Holder (late Naptin, Formerly Goouch)

Alfred Holder death certificate reads:

Date of death: 8th November 1932
Age: 49 years
Occupation: Army War Pensioner
Informant: E Holder (Widow)

There is something from another document which is added on to the death cert after column 9 but the writing is very small. When I work out what it says I will add this info as well.

Hope to have the Naptin/Pitt marriage cert tomorrow

I have found a British Army Service Record

First name(s): Alfred
Last name: HOLDER
Calculated year of birth: 1884
Parish of birth: Leytonstone
Town of birth: Stratford
County of birth: Essex
Age at attestation: 17 years 5 months
Attestation date: 7 August 1901
Attestation corps: ESSEX REGT
Attestation soldier number: 8318
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps: Essex Regiment - 44th & 56th
Foot Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO96 / 766 / 410

In the 1911 census there are 2 Alfred Holders in West Ham.

One is mine listed as being born 1881 Stratford, the other is still living with his family and is listed as being born 1884 Plaistow.

Can I be confident that the above record belongs to my Alfred Holder despite the Army records saying his DoB is 1884?

The image states that he is present from 1901 - 1906. As Martha married Alfred Pitt in 1905 this records would seemingly prove that Alfred Pitt and Alfred Holder are 2 different people.

Also, why is Martha calling herself Elizabeth Holder, late Naptin, formerly Goouch on Frank Holders birth cert with no mention of the Pitt marrige yet when she mrries Vandersteen in 1960 she is Pitt?

So many questions, sorry :-S

Jayne, I certainly wouldn't take for granted that the service record is the right one especially as there was another chap of the right age who it could belong to. What was the occupation on the service record?

I would very strongly suspect that the reason she remarried in the name of Pitt was because there had never been a legal marriage to a Holder.

Who registered the births?

The births were registered by E Holder, mother.

The occupation on the service record is that he is a general labourer for a Mr Norman of Stratford Market.

I think this is the 1911 for Alfred Holder who the service records belong to:

HOLDER, Thomas Head Married M 62 1849 Blacksmiths Striker Wateringbury Kent
HOLDER, Leah Wife Married37 years F 58 1853 Biringham Staffs
HOLDER, Alfred Son Single M 27 1884 Dock Labour Plaistow Essex
HOLDER, Fredrick Son M 14 1897 Errand Boy Pawn Plaistow Essex

RG number: RG14 Piece: 9454
Reference: RG14PN9454 RG78PN507B RD188 SD3 ED44 SN307
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: Plaistow
Enumeration District: 44
Parish: West Ham

Address: 21 Beatrice Street Plaistow County: Essex

He's with the same parents in 1901 where his occupation is General Labourer which matches the occupation on the service record.

EDIT: Yes, the service record does say he works in a market and your Alfred was a market porter in 1911.

I'm still not convinced, the other Alfred (Thomas & Leah's son) could have married someone who's name began with "E".

Jayne - does it have a date of birth on Alfred Holder's death certificate, or just his age at death?

Thanks Marie

They are the only Army records I could find for an Alfred Holder of the right age and place.

Also, despite there being 2 Alfred Holders on the 1911 the only one on the 1901 with similar age/location is the one you have just listed.

As Martha/Elizabeth and Alfred Holder did not marry is there any way I can find out who he was? It really is starting to drive me mad.

If Alfred Pitt and Alfred Holder are 2 different people why can I not find a Pitt death or a Holder birth which would match up? :-(

I am going to Stratford Heritage tomorrow so can spend the day looking up records :-D

EDIT - Edited names, got confused :-S