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Martha Elizabeth Goouch

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


MarieCeleste Report 31 Jan 2013 08:33

Sorry, must dash to work - will look more later


JannieAnnie Report 31 Jan 2013 12:01

Well, well, well

More excellent finds MC. When I posted the Thomas Pitt Lexden birth I was thinking along the lines of a liaison - if Albert and Thomas were brothers/cousins - if both were on the scene. I tried working out any time lapse between marriage and birth. Gave up as it all became too convoluted in my head.

Just a question, first born sons were often called after their father (so Albert Snr would call his first son Albert), why then was Albert's (jnr) father named as Thomas on his marriage cert - unless he was his father, even though his birth cert showed Albert.

Off to think about it all ...........


MarieCeleste Report 31 Jan 2013 16:15

I think Alfred snr really was Alfred jnr's father. Alfred snr must have died and then Emma married his brother Thomas.

Alfred jnr possibly thought of Thomas as his father, or just put him on the marriage certificate because he was his stepfather.

Obviously this is subject to verification.


JayneB Report 31 Jan 2013 19:02

What a surprise, I come home from work to find all of these brilliant finds. I am so pleased to be on the way to solving part of the mystery and am very grateful for all of your help so far.

I would agree with MC that Alfred snr is Alfred jnrs father and will order the certificate to check.

I have had a quick look but have not found a death for Alfred snr, however if he was also a mariner he could have died anywhere.

I have a long list of ships which Alfred Pitt served on, mostly from the cards that MC found. There are 2 ships in 1891, one in 1894 and then a gap until 1922. I guess the key is to find out whether he sailed sometime between 1905 and 1908. That could explain why Martha/Elizabeth set up home with Alfred Holder instead.

Depending on dates it could also explain who Frank Holders father was. Although his birth cert reads Holder, father Alfred Holder I think he may have been a Pitt child. That could explain why he was in the workhouse as Holder may not have wanted children who were not naturally his, which included the Naptin children.

My other reason for thinking that he may really be a Pitt was mentioned earlier in this thread. The first born son was usually named after the father. Frank was the first born child with a Holder surname but the second son, born in 1911, is the one named Alfred.

As for who was Alfred Holder, as he and Martha/Elizabeth never married and his Army records appear to have vanished I guess I will have to wait for the 1921 census release to get any clues. :-(


JayneB Report 31 Jan 2013 19:51

Emma Lake has 3 children in the 1881 census, the last being born in 1872. She also says she is widowed.

I have searched for an Alfred Pitt death between 1871 and 1881 who was born 1843 +/- 2 tears and only found 2. One in Tarragona, Spain and one in Wangford, Suffolk.


JannieAnnie Report 1 Feb 2013 10:50

Just reviewing - any news from Stratford Registrar re notes on death cert?


MarieCeleste Report 1 Feb 2013 13:27

Just closing the gap a bit between 1894 and 1922:

New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Alfred Pitt
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Age: 46
Port of Departure: London Via Melbourne
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 18 Jun 1914
Vessel Name: Makarini

He was an AB, born Wivinho

There's an almost identical record for 31 July 1914, so it looks like he spent time in the southern hemisphere. It's most likely he just worked from one ship to another and there's not much chance of finding records if they were foreign shipping companies.


JayneB Report 1 Feb 2013 14:10

JannieAnnie - Nothing yet. The person I need is on holiday so I have emailed him all of the details. He should be back on Monday.

MarieCeleste - How on earth do you find these things? I spent hours searching last night without success. Thank you.


MarieCeleste Report 1 Feb 2013 18:53

Jayne - most of these were from Ancestry Worldwide.


JayneB Report 2 Feb 2013 15:16

This won't help with the search but thought I would add them anyway.

Found in the Essex Chronicle, Friday August 24th 1906, pg 8:

Elizabeth Pitt, 23, married, of 41 Rendell Road, Tidal Basin, was charged with stealing between July 19th and August 18th 2,40j cubic feet of gas, the property of the Gas, Light and Coke company. It was alleged that the meter had been tampered with, and the prisoner admitted using the gas, and said "I turned the gas on, put a penny in and used it again". Fined £2 or 1 month imprisonment

The Newsman, Saturday 19th January 1929

Runaway Lorry - Frank Holder, Brooks Road, Plaistow was summoned for driving a motor lorry without effective brakes - PC Smy stated that the lorry ran backwards down Brook Street Hill for between 400 and 500 yards and, before coming to a standstill, collided with a motor car and a stationary lorry. - Defendant, who wrote that his transmission gear broke as he was going up the hill was fined £2


MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 15:25

Well Jayne, at least they don't seem like hardened criminals!

Poor Elizabeth was probably just trying to keep her family warm.


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 16:08

Today's visit to Stratford has given me nothing.

I visited West Ham cemetery in the hope that the grave might give me some clues, however Alfred Holder was buried in the one small part of the graveyard which was reclaimed for burials during the blitz and is no longer visible. If there ever was a gravestone it was laid flat and now has at least 6 feet of earth piled on top of it.

On to Stratford Archives where I searched the West Ham Board of Guardian Minutes from 1908 - 1914 looking for any mention of Pitt, Holder, Naptin or Goouch. There was only one mention where the committee recommended that "Proceedings for neglecting to maintain their families be taken against(amongst others) the husband of Elizabeth Pitt.

I will go back next week to search the electoral roll.

I have two more possible chances to resolve this.

If the National Archives have the correct records I may be able to trace Alfred Pitt back through time starting with the ship record MC found for 1914, although going back to 1905 may prove difficult.

My other hope is that Alfred Holder remained in the Army after 1919 as I believe that this would mean his records are currently sealed. If that is the case then hopefully one day I will be able to access them.

Apart from ordering the relative certificates to prove that Alfred Pitt (Wivenhoe) is the same Alfred Pitt who married Martha/Elizabeth I am not sure where else I can go.

Two more questions though.

I can't find a death for Alfred Pitt but surely Martha/Elizabeth would have had to prove that she was either widowed or divorced when she married Vandersteen in 1960?

If Alfred Holder was in the army in 1914 is he really the father of Albert b 1914, Violet b 1915, Richard b 1917 and George b 1919 or is Martha/Elizabeth just putting his details on the birth certs?


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 18:02

I wonder if this could be anything to do with Alfred Holder?

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 about Alfred Holder

Name: Alfred Holder
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Age at enlistment: 32
Residence: 31 Beatrice St, Barking Rd Plaistow Ldn E
Document Year: 1916
Regimental Number: 28808
Regiment Name: Reserve Lab Coy
Number of images: 2

EDIT - It is not my Alfred, it is the other Alfred from the 1911 census with parents Thomas and Leah


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 19:06

Just wondering:

Earlier in this thread I found an army record

First name(s): Alfred
Last name: HOLDER
Calculated year of birth: 1884
Parish of birth: Leytonstone
Town of birth: Stratford
County of birth: Essex
Age at attestation: 17 years 5 months
Attestation date: 7 August 1901
Attestation corps: ESSEX REGT
Attestation soldier number: 8318
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps: Essex Regiment - 44th & 56th
Foot Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO96 / 766 / 410

Which we decided belonged to a different Alfred Holder (b 1884 parents Thomas and Leah, living at home in 1911 census)
On these records his physical description is 5ft 5 3/4 with scars on the back of his neck.

I have just found another service record,

Name: Alfred Holder
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Age at enlistment: 32
Residence: 31 Beatrice St, Barking Rd Plaistow Ldn E
Document Year: 1916
Regimental Number: 28308
Regiment Name: Royal Fusiliers
Number of images: 40

This one is definitely the wrong Alfred Holder (ie it is the Alfred Holder parents Thomas and Leah...I checked the images) but the physical description is 5 ft 8 3/4 inches.

Clutching at straws but maybe they are not the same person? Could the first one be my Alfred after all?


MarieCeleste Report 5 Feb 2013 19:35

Jayne, it's not impossible that a lad who was just 17 in 1901 could have grown a few inches by 1916. I honestly don't think the first record is your Alfred Holder (but I might be wrong).

I'll compare the records.

EDIT: Hmmm - the son of Thomas and Leah says in 1916 that he's never served before .....


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 19:55

Thanks MC :-)


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 20:06

On the 1901 Alfred Holder army record he states his address as 19 Tenby Road, although the 19 has been corrected to 11.

On the 1901 Census there is an Alfred Alder age 17 living with his family at 11 Tenby Road. I have checked the image and that also says Alder.

Is it possible that the enumerator wrote the names down incorrectly?

EDIT - I forgot to add that the parents names are Richard and Esther


MarieCeleste Report 5 Feb 2013 20:12

That 1901 IS interesting Jayne - look at the occupation of his stepbrother:

ALDER, Richard Head Married M 45 1856 General Laborer East Farley, Kent
ALDER, Esther Wife Married F 54 1847 Hackney, London
ALDER, Alfred Son Single M 17 1884 General Grocer Porter Leytonstone, Essex
ALDER, Lizzie Daughter Single F 14 1887 West Ham, Essex
SMITH, George Step Son Single M 30 1871 Invalid 2nd Essex Regiment
Kingsland, London
SMITH, Francis Step Son Single M 27 1874 General Labourer West Hartlepool, Durham

Piece: 1566 Folio: 34 Page: 19
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: West Ham

Address: 11, Tenby Road, West Ham County: Essex

I daresay the enumerator would have written what he heard, especially if they dropped their aitches. Need to check for Alders on other records to prove/disprove.


JayneB Report 5 Feb 2013 20:19

I can't find anything on the 1891 but then I don't pretend to be as good as you at finding things. I will keep looking


MarieCeleste Report 5 Feb 2013 20:41

I can't find the Alder's anywhere else but I'm also struggling to find them as Holder, either.

I thought I'd found the service records of George Smith. There was one born Dalston (close to Kingsland) who was medically discharged 26/03/1901 but his mother was Sarah Smith.