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Guess you must be right there, MarieCeleste. she was on the 1881 Census still with Thomas Samuel, but suppose she could have left him any time. The mystery still lies with just what father Ellen belonged to - I'm hoping the BC will confirm it.

Its definitely the right folks as one of the witnesses, Robert Hazle, boarded with Maryann & Thomas Samuel on the 1881 Census.

It's quite likely that Mary Ann left Thomas Samuel and set up home with Thomas Norman. Children registered in the name of Norman as he acknowledged paternity. They married after they knew Thomas Samuel had died.

Thomas Norman was a bachelor on marriage in 1891:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Thomas Norman, bachelor. A labourer
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Age: 35
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Samuel, widow
Spouse Age: 38
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Aug 1891
Parish: Walworth All Saints
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas William Stafford Norman - Lighterman
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Barnett - Labourer.
Register Type: Parish Register

Address for both stated as 9 Portland Street.

Witnesses Robert Hazle and Mary Ann Hazle.

I see how it looks with this baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Ellen Agnes Norman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Nov 1884
Father's Name: Thomas Norman - labourer
Mother's Name: Mary Anne Norman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Katharine
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Lived 2 Beaconsfield Terrace.

Here's the 1891 for reference:

NORMAN, Thomas Head Married M 39 1852 General Labourer Rotherhithe
NORMAN, Mary Anne Wife Married F 40 1851 Ironer Romford, Essex
SAMUEL, Florence Daughter Single F 19 1872 Ironer Romford, Essex
SAMUEL, Joe W Son Single M 17 1874 Leather Finisher Romford, Essex
NORMAN, George Son Single M 10 1881 Deptford
NORMAN, Ellen A Daughter Single F 6 1885 Deptford
SAMUEL, Charlotte E Daughter Single F 13 1878 Deptford

Piece: 498 Folio: 45 Page: 6
Registration District: Greenwich
Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford

Address: 260, Lower Road, St Paul Deptford County: London

How do you know MaryAnn was her mother? Could the Norman children not be Thomas' from a previous marriage?

HLH - there are divorce records but it's very highly unlikely that ordinary people divorced back then, it was really only the wealthy who could afford it. Can't see a record for them.

The name on a baptism may not be the same as the name on a certificate. Have you looked for a registration of her birth?

Always best to quote GRO reference when ordering if you find it:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1884
Norman Agnes Ellen Greenwich 1d 1041

Where and when did Mary Ann Bennett marry Thomas Samuel?

We've got an Ellen Norman I think was born in 1884 (officially known as Agnes Ellen). Her mother was Maryann Bennett who married Thomas Samuel - he died in 1888.

Maryann subsequently remarried - to aThomas Norman in 1891. I am certain that Ellen's surname must surely be Samuel (as she was born 4 yrs before Thomas Samuel died) and yet there is nothing on the free bmd births for that surname - only under Norman.

I will apply for the BC but in the meantime Is anyone able to trace any baptism record, please, so that I get the right surname on the cert?

The only other thing is maybe Maryann divorced prior to the death of Thomas Samuel. suppose they didn't have divorce records in those days.

I know what you mean HLH - these records do start to send you boggle-eyed!

MarieCeleste: sorry, another brainstrom by me, I'm afraid. When I was going to type Annie's name I had Maryann in my head. Duh!

Many thanks

... and her parent's marriage:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Henry Holland - Carpenter
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Ann Terry
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Apr 1863
Parish: Bermondsey St Luke
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Holland - Carpenter
Spouse Father Name: Henry Terry - Waterman.
Register Type: Parish Register

Neither previously married. Address for both 12 Heath Terrace, Penge.

Witnesses Edward Holland and Harriett Holland

Found Mary Jane's baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Mary Jane Holland
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 16 Jul 1877 - born 13 Sep 1875
Father's Name: Henry Holland - Carpenter
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Holland
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey Christ Church
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Lived somewhere that looks like 13 Flop Row.

HLH - I posted above that the mother was Anna Louisa (no mention of a Mary Ann?) Different family but may be related?

Here's that baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: William George Samuel
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1902
Father's Name: Thomas John Samuel - Dock Labourer
Mother's Name: Annie Louisa Samuel
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Katharine
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

They lived 27 St Helena Road.
___________________________________________________________

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915

Name: William George Samuel
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1903
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1903
Age at Death: 0
Registration district: St Olave Bermondsey
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 143

Many thanks for all that everyone! However, its odd about the William George born to Thomas & Maryann as no-one in the family has every mentioned him and he;'s not cropped up on anything else thus far. Perhaps they weren't aware of his existence. do you have a birth/death date for him, please?

much appreciated everyone.

Mary Jane Holland
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 16 Jul 1877
Father's Name: Henry Holland (Carpenter)
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Holland
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey Christ Church
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

States born 13/9/1875 in margin.

Mary J Holland
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry Holland
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Holland
Gender: Female
Where born: Bermondsey, London, England

Civil parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: St James Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 375
Folio: 35
Page Number: 61
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Holland 53 <<carpenter, born Southwark
Elizabeth Holland 49
Louisa Holland 21
Mary J Holland 16
Edwin Holland 14

Others born Bermondsay

Joseph William Samuel <<Carman of 27 St Helena Rd
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Mary Jane Holland <<of 198 Fort Rd.
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1895
Parish: Bermondsey St Anne
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Hampshire Samuel <<labourer
Register Type: Parish Register

Her father Henry Holland, carpenter
Witnesses Thomas John Samuel & Matilda ??

Choccy - William George wasn't their son (he belonged to Thomas John & Annie Louisa).

The deaths for Mary Jane, Florence Louisa and Henry Edward match up to the baptisms.

Charles Ernest born too late to be on the baptisms which only go up to 1906.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Joseph Thomas Samuel
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Sep 1902
Father's Name: Joseph William Samuel
Mother's Name: Mary Jane Samuel
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Katharine
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers
________________________________________________________

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Mary Jane Samuel
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 3 May 1898
Father's Name: Joseph William Samuel
Mother's Name: Mary Jane Samuel
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Katharine
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Only three children said to have died - I have found four 'possibles'



EDIT - have deleted William George Samuel, in view of MarieCeleste's posting at 22.13

Births Sep 1896 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Florence Louise St. Olave 1d 303


Deaths Mar 1900 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Florence Louisa 3 St. Olave 1d 220


Births Jun 1898 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Mary Jane St. Olave 1d 290


Deaths Mar 1900 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Mary Jane 1 St. Olave 1d 223

Births Sep 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Henry Edward St. Olave 1d 244


Deaths Mar 1910 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Henry Edward 4 St Olave Bermondsey 1d 104