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A. Smith

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BarbaraFromYorkshire

BarbaraFromYorkshire Report 16 Feb 2013 20:13

Was wondering about this ?


England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
about Annabella Wright

Name:

Annabella Wright
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1877
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume Number: 9d
Page Number: 800

THe 2 males on the page are

Samuel Coupe
Robert Walter Smith

==============================

On 1881 census

1881 England Census 1881 England Census
Name: Annie B. Smith
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Smith
Gender: Female
Where born: Guisbro, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Linthorpe
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 23 Jameson St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Wife

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4854
Folio: 72
Page Number: 31
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Smith 30 --head --Labourer Iron Works-- London, Middlesex, Englandd
Annie B. Smith 24 ---Guisbro, Yorkshire
Lottie Smith 3 --Middlesbrough

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4854; Folio: 72; Page: 31; GSU roll: 1342169.
===========================================================

On 1891

Living in same house And Annabella is now Anna B ---

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4011; Folio: 121; Page: 7; GSU roll: 6099121

========================================================

1901
Now is Hannah B

Now living at what looks like 8 Milbank Street (but could be Nilback street ??)

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4578; Folio: 65; Page: 26.
========================================================

then in 1911

1911 England Census 1911 England Census
Name: Annabella Smith
Age in 1911: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Gwishborugh (Guisborough)
Civil parish: Middlesbrough
County/Island: Yorkshire-North Riding
Country: England
Street Address: 8 Duncombe Street Middlesbrough
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Registration District Number: 535
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough West
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Piece: 29279
Household Members: Name Age
Annabella Smith 53

All Children born Middlesbrough

Robert Walter Smith 26
Mary Ann Smith 23
George William Smith 21
Alice Adamson Smith 17
Richard Wright Smith 14
John Charles Smith 11
John Barnswell 57 --Boarder--born ireland


Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 29279; ; .

It says 8 children born i had died before 1911 (I think this was Lottie from 1881 census)
==========================================================

I will look to see if i can find a connection with Wright / Welsh etc.



Madmeg

Madmeg Report 16 Feb 2013 19:25

I had a death in my own family in the 1800s where the informant said she was a cousin (or might have been a sister in law), and wasn't. She WAS a relative, but the relationship was beyond their comprehension as to how to describe it, so she just plumped for what seemed reasonable. In fact, she was the first cousin once removed of the seond husband of the deceased. Try explaining that in 1880!

So you might have a lot of research to do to get to who exactly Mary Welch's informant was.

Good luck!

Margaret

Peter

Peter Report 16 Feb 2013 18:53

Mavis, thank you for that tip - never knew that!

Also, thanks VERA, that is the family in 1901!

And Barbara from Yorkshire - maybe John aged 60 is a cousin of my Thomas. My Thomas had a brother John so definitley not a sibling.

Thanks Margaret.

Basically, my ancestor Thomas Welch married twice - his first wife, my ancestor died in 1870. He then remarried in 1874, lying about his age. His age jumps from 28 in 1881 to 60 in 1901. He isn't on the 1871 and 1891 despite searches on here.

I'm curious about Mary Welch's informant being a cousin due to the family intermarriages. Confusing I know.

vera2010

vera2010 Report 15 Feb 2013 21:52

This is Thomas living at 23 Back Nile Street.

1901 England Census
about Thomas Welsh Name: Thomas Welsh
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Scarbro, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Middlesbrough
Ecclesiastical parish: St Hilda
Town: Middlesbro
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 23 Back Nile Street

Occupation: Hawker

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 260
Piece: 4574
Folio: 163
Page Number: 48
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Burnside 23
Margaret Burnside 22
Thomas Burnside 1 Month
Thomas Welsh 60
Jane A Welsh 14
Bridget A Welsh 12
George Welsh 10
Terence Welsh 8
Louisa Welsh 6
Mary Welsh 5

Vera

Mavis

Mavis Report 15 Feb 2013 16:38



About Travelling people they do at times change the surname for census - could be mothers or even great grandmothers surnames

Mavis

BarbaraFromYorkshire

BarbaraFromYorkshire Report 15 Feb 2013 16:05

The only thing I can find , but not sure if its anything to do with this is

1891 England Census 1891 England Census
Name: Ann Welsh
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Welsh
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesborough

Civil parish: Middlesborough
Ecclesiastical parish: St Hildas
Town: Middlesborough
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 13, Back Nile Street

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4005
Folio: 109
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
John Welsh 60 --Head---Rag (or Bag) Gatherer
Ann Welsh 21 Daughter
John Welsh 8 Grandson

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4005; Folio: 109; Page: 25; GSU roll: 6099115.

I was hoping Ann had gone on to marry a "Smith" but I don't think she married at All
The ages are out for John and Ann on this census This looks like the family in 1881

1881 England Census 1881 England Census
Name: Ann Welsh
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Welsh
Mother's Name: Mary Welsh
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesbrough, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Middlesbrough
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 5 Chapmans Yd
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4846
Folio: 97
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
John Welsh 44
Mary Welsh 43
Patrick Welsh 19
Michael Welsh 9
James Welsh 11
Ann Welsh 16

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4846; Folio: 97; Page: 13; GSU roll: 1342167.


Ann Welsh is then in 1901 census as a visiter and with her is John -- the Grandson From 1891 census now age 18--- they are visiting Patrick her Brother.

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 15 Feb 2013 00:08

I haven't found Thomas Welsh at Nile Street, Middlesborough in 1901. Please post your findings.

I am very concerned that you are on the wrong track, and I'd rather get you back on the right one.

Margaret

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 14 Feb 2013 23:18

Hi Peter

Sorry you had already said the informant was at Nile Street.

You say you have the marriage cert from 1873. But the likely marriage that Barbara found is Edit 1874. So can you tell us what is on that marriage cert and what makes you sure it is the right couple?

Which of her children is your direct ancestor? And do you have the birth certificate of that person? Details please if you do.

Margaret

Peter

Peter Report 13 Feb 2013 22:16

Ah ok ... sorry, I missed them!

She was 41 according to the death certificate and died at 143 Duncombe Street, Middlesbrough. However, she was from and married into a travelling family.

Her husband was Thomas Welch/Welsh, a hawker/labourer.

I have her marriage certificate from 1873, and the birth certificates of some of her children.

Also, the information's address was Nile Street, Middlesbrough (where Thomas Welch/Welsh was living in 1901). I didn't post this as people have already looked up this information,

Peter

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 13 Feb 2013 21:48

Peter, can you please answer the questions that I posed earlier?

How old was she at death?

What was the address of the informant?

Does it give the name of her husband, Mr Welch?

A death cert doesn't usually give the maiden name of a married woman - so how do you know it was Pattison?

Margaret

Peter

Peter Report 13 Feb 2013 19:40

Ah so not the correct one. Another source told me Bridget's maiden name was AMOS!

mgnv

mgnv Report 13 Feb 2013 04:47

Marriages Jun 1850 (>99%)
Dunlavy Ann York 23 796
Hagley Jane York 23 796
Kendell Susanna York 23 796
Loftus Thomas York 23 796
Mann Thomas York 23 796
McMarroneye Michael York 23 796
Melody Bridget York 23 796
Pattison Thomas York 23 796

Yorkshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PATTISON Thomas KENDELL Susanna York District Marriages, York York DM/4/172
MELODY Bridget LOFTUS Thomas York District Marriages, York York DM/4/170

Peter

Peter Report 12 Feb 2013 21:40

Yes thank you Catherine - I already have this information but didn't mention as I didn't think it was nessesary here.

Can I help with other details?!

Catherine

Catherine Report 12 Feb 2013 21:15

This would go with the ancestry tree:-

Marriages Jun 1861 (>99%)
Magee Jane Stockton 10a 73
Stainsby Ralph Stockton 10a 73
Stephenson Hannah Stockton 10a 73
Welsh Thomas Stockton 10a 73

Peter

Peter Report 12 Feb 2013 21:03

Basically he lied about his age. I obviously don't know why, but yes, he was born c. 1841.

Catherine

Catherine Report 12 Feb 2013 20:41

So am I correct in thinking that the Thomas Welch/Welsh in Barbara's 1881 census is the correct one, then he was born abt. 1853.
In which case, he was very advanced for his years.

1881:- aged 28yrs old he already had 2 children aged 14yrs and 12yrs, which would have made him 14yrs old when he had the first one and if he was married at the time, then he must of married when he was 13yrs old ?
If the tree on ancestry is correct, then he had his first child, in 1864, when he was 11yrs old. That's very young even for those days.


Or am I missing something here??

Peter

Peter Report 12 Feb 2013 19:21

Possible:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1866 (>99%)
FINLEY Margaret C Stockton 10a 137 Scan available - click to view
PATTISON Annie Stockton 10a 137 Scan available - click to view
RUTTER Henry Stockton 10a 137 Scan available - click to view
SMITH Daniel Stockton 10a 137 Scan available - click to view

Peter

Peter Report 12 Feb 2013 17:56

Hi,

Sorry for any confusion ... I initially thought that A. Smith would be living at her address in 1901.

Mary Pattison was the one born in Stockton in 1856, daughter of Thomas and Bridget (mother's name not known). She married Thomas WELCH/WELSH in 1874 in Darlington, County Durham ... she was living in Bishop Auckland in 1881. She and her family can not be found in 1891.

From reflecting, I am not sure where to go ... I have a lot of confusion with these families, and various threads have been carried on them (all specific).

Peter

Reggie

Reggie Report 12 Feb 2013 12:56

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Bridget Melody
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1850
Registration district: York
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Volume Number: 23
Page Number: 796

On the same page: Thomas Pattison

Look for Pattison/Smith and Melody/Smith marriages



Reggie

Reggie Report 12 Feb 2013 12:52

?????
1871 England Census about Mary Pattison
Name: Mary Pattison
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Durham, England
Civil parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration district: Darlington
Sub-registration district: Darlington
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 238
Piece: 4883
Folio: 105
Page Number: 39
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Pattison 58
Ann Pattison 64
Thomas Pattison 14
Robert Pattison 8
Thomas Pattison 44 Brother, born GLASGOW
Bridget Pattison 35
William Pattison 18
Mary Pattison 14
Bessie Pattison 14
Annie Pattison 10
Margaret Pattison 8
Thomas Pattison 4