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John PATERSON & Elizabeth WATSON - Scotland

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 25 Feb 2013 06:30

Thank you Anne for your time and help, much appreciated!!! :-D

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 24 Feb 2013 10:39

Hi Cherilyn,
Yes JA shows as a fireman or engine man on most rolls.
An article in trove also shows he obtained a 1st class merit as an engine driver.
Later, he is a Engine Turner.

On the 1903 and 1906 rolls, Agnes Paterson shows simply as Home Duties.
Same with Agnes Annie on all rolls.

If JA and Agnes do live in the same house at 03 & 06, I would hazzard a guess that she is his sister or other relative.

I just find it odd that both JA and tthe widow of Alexander Paterson, both seem to appear with an unidentified woman called Agnes Paterson.

I did look at all the other men called Alexander Paterson in WA, and all were the only Patersons at their addressses and I am sure Agnes Annie's husband was a labourer. There was nothing to be gleaned here.

I am certain that the info on JA will be found on his obit, it may mention siblings.
However, there were no In laws mentioned on Lillians obit.

Lastly, and it just a thought. If he as of Scottish descent, it is more likely that his middle name of Alexander was the last name ( surname) of a grandparent.

Will PM you.


۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 24 Feb 2013 03:19

Odd how Lilian Beatrice does not show up on the rolls as HOGARTH, her maiden name, in 1903 & 1906. She was 26 in 1905 when she married JA. I guess since women had only just been given the right to vote, maybe some had not yet enrolled!

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 24 Feb 2013 03:00

HI again Anne

Yes sadly John died after the newspapers finish on Trove! But my friend has his death certificate and it does not mention an earlier marriage or child.

So are Agnes PATERSON and Agnes Annie PATERSON the same woman?

Looking at the Anc search I can see:
Agnes PATERSON in Fremantle (1903, 1906), Coolgardie (1910), Kalgoorlie (1916), and Perth (1925).
Agnes Annie PATERSON in Perth (1925 - 1949).

I am wondering if the 1925 ones are the same person and she has added her middle name to her enrolment; sometimes the old listing is not removed straight away (also happens with chaneg of address too, old one still appears so seems like a duplicate).

There is also an Agnes Howie PATERSON in Fremantle and then Kalgoorlie (she died in 1963 aged 88). And Agnes Edith PATERSON, but she was the wife of Cedric John...

An Alexander PATERSON is in Swan in 1903 and Fremantle in 1906, later in Dampier & Kagoorlie (may be 2 I think).

So JA shows as a fireman in all rolls? And he and Agnes are both shown as Commercial Rd, Fremantle in 1903 & 1906?

What occupation does Agnes/Agnes Annie show up as?

Where is Alexander PATERSON living in Fremantle in 1906?

Daughter Margaret Alexander PATERSON shows up as MEPHAM 1936-58.

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to get it straight in my mind!

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 23 Feb 2013 16:53

Hi Cherilyn,
Agnes Annie Paterson first appears on Ers in WA in 1925. ( i cant find her before this at all)
At no point is there a male Paterson in her home, only person in the home is there 1925 and her name is ...AGNES PATERSON.
Married 1904 means that no children born inside marriage would be eligible to vote at 1925, therefore I deduce that this is not a child... agree?

Agnes Annie drops off the rolls in 1949 which is consistent with her death announcement in 1953. and she only had one child called Margaret!

John Alexander Paterson was STILL on Ers in Koolgardie up until 1954.
I have to be honest... JA can be positively identified as the SAME man on all Ers 1903-1954. His wife Lillian Beatrice drops off in keeping with her 1936 death.
However, those 1st two rolls are simply "Commerial Road, Chesterfield, Fremantle" there is no house number. and are the only two Patersons in the area
I have assumed that JA and Agnes lived at the "Same" property perhaps they were in different houses?
1903 and 1906: Commercial Road, Fremantlle
1910 & 1916 JA and Lillian Beatrice at: 78 Hanbury Street, Kalgoorlie
1925- 1943: 194 Piccadilly St, Kalgoorlie
Lilian Beatrice drops off, consistent with her death .
Chldren: John Hogarth, and Harold George. Females Isabella Elizabeth and Marie Adele
1954: 4 Elizabeth Street, Cottlesloe,
Lives with Harold George and Marie Adele

Ancestry server has crashed!... but does anyone know when John Alexander Paterson died?
I find it really odd that there is no death announcement.... from the other articles on him, he was a well known man who seems to have been highly regarded.
He was secretary of the AEU when his wife died

EDIT:
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about John Alexander Paterson
Name: John Alexander Paterson
Death Place: Western Australia
Age: 76
Registration Year: 1955
Registration Place: East Coolgardie, Western Australia
Registration number: 112
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 14:59

Wondering if Alexander is the one who died in 1916 aged 60, late of Wyndham, buried Fremantle?

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 14:41

oh I see what you mean....so that must be a different Agnes with JA in 1903?!

Do Alexander & Agnes show up elsewhere together as I can see Agnes Annie PATERSON in 1903 & 1906 in Fremantle then 1910 & 1916 in Coolgardie/Kalgoorlie, then in Perth 1925-1949 (but can't see who she is with)

Oddly enough the first 4 are the same places as John Alex - this man is doing my head in!!!

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 23 Feb 2013 14:37

I will collect the ER data but am certain that the Alexander Paterson who married Agnes Annie Bartholemew is a different man because they married in 1904.
It doesn't quite fit the info

Cherilyn's man was defintely John Alexander Paterson and he appeared on the 1903 roll with someone called Agnes Paterson
ERs are prepared months in advance, and the 1903 roll was most likely to have been collated in 1902..... thats almost 2 yrs prior to the marriage in question.

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 11:42

Where was daughter Margaret in all this I wonder? Can't find her birth in WA at all...

Marriage:
MEPHAM HARRY
Male
PATERSON MARGARET A
Female
PERTH
reg 266
1931


Death:
MEPHAM
MARGARET ALEXANDER
Female
[aged] 55
[father] ALEXANDER
[mother] AGNES A
PERTH
reg 2908
1959

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 11:39

Thank you, Anne, this is amazing...well bigamy might explain why he would give the wrong parents names on his (2nd?) marriage! How very intruiging...so maybe when Agnes' death notice refers to him as 'the late' it was because he was presumed dead?

The only thing bugging me is that Kalgoorlie-Boulder would have been a small place to be able to hide in plain sight, especially as it appears Agnes' sister lived there too! Perhaps John told people he had a twin brother named Alexander lol :-D

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 23 Feb 2013 10:11

Cherilyn,
Entered on all rolls as John Alexander Paterson
Yes, by 1910 there is only Lillian Beatrice iwith him.

I am certain that it is the same man, from the two earlier rolls...based on his occupation but will collect all the ER data and come back later.

Anne

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 02:11

From NLA Trove - not sure it is the same man - John Alexander died in 1955

Friday 31 July 1953
PATERSON: On July 30, 1953. Agnes Annie, beloved wife of the late Alexander Paterson, mother of Margaret (Mrs. Mepham), loving grandmother of Mary, loving sister of Mary Teresa (Mrs. Davey), beloved aunty of Maisie (Mrs. D. Caddy) and Mr. and Mrs. C. Clegg. Requiescat in pace.

Agnes was 84 when she died so born c1869 - older than John Alexander...

Mary BARTHOLOMEU married Chas DAVEY in Boulder in 1908. She died in Perth in 1956, d/o Jas J & Margaret C, aged 84. I think her husband died in Boulder in 1915.



Does John Alexander show up in the rolls in WA or SA? He gives his address as Wittenoom St, Boulder in 1905. Son was born in Kalgoorlie in 1906. By the 1930s he was at Piccadilly St, Kalgoorlie.

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 02:05

Anne does he show up as John Alexander, or just Alexander? When you say 'replaced by his wife', do you mean Lilian Beatrice shows up at the same adddress?

found this marriage:
PATERSON ALEXANDER
Male
BATHOLMEW AGNES ANNE
Female
KALGOORLIE
reg 363
1904

He gave his address as being in the goldfields when he married in 1905...in Perth

PATERSON JOHN ALEXANDER
Male
HOGARTH LILIAN BEATRICE
Female
PERTH
reg 1436
1905


Agnes' death?:
PATERSON AGNES A
Female
PERTH
reg 1824
1953

What address is he at in 1910? And is Agnes still around, at a different address?

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 23 Feb 2013 02:00

ooh Anne that is interesting; he WAS a fireman! (though not sure if in mining or railways)

will definitely follow that up, great lead, thank you :-)

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 22 Feb 2013 12:51

This may be something or nothing...
Looking at this man, I can see his1905 marriage, but I can also find him on two electoral rolls beforehand.
He was was fireman and lived at Commercial Road, Chesterfield, Fremantle
He is on both the 1903 and 1906 ERs.
The 1906 ER was possibly prepared in advance of his 1905 marriage but on both of these, there is a woman called Agnes Paterson at the same address.
The next ER is 1910 and Agnes has been replaced by his wife.

Is Agnes a previous wife, sister or his mother?

Potty

Potty Report 22 Feb 2013 11:56

I can't find the 1861 family in any later census although Ancestry tie them up with later Canadian censuses.

۞ Cherilyn ۞

۞ Cherilyn ۞ Report 22 Feb 2013 11:36

Thanks, Potty...He married in 1905 aged 28 so born c1877. Sorry for the confusion. On his son's birth cert the following year he is shown as 29.

Really doesn't seem to fit...i think he is the one born in Robe SA in 1876 but my friend does not agree despite several points of 'coincidence' (eg Boer War record), because that birth has parents Alexander & Mary Ann (nee LYNCH) (who are also a mystery!).

Might have to accept this one as a brick wall!

Potty

Potty Report 22 Feb 2013 11:32

Sorry, Cherilyn, that should have been 1855 - 1905 - I thought John's birth was 1905. Have done another search and there are no marriages for those names coming up between 1855 and 1877; there is one coming up between 1877 and 1900. By playing around with the dates, that marriage was in 1882 - could John have lied about his age on the marriage?

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Feb 2013 11:29

The years you quote are too early...check the dates Potty listed

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Feb 2013 11:28

The couple on 1861 would have only been aged about 40 in 1875/6