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Maternal grandparents

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

mgnv

mgnv Report 28 Feb 2013 00:20


There's a couple of choices for Edward & Dorothy's marr:

Marriages Mar 1862 (>99%)
Atkinson William Auckland 10a 172
Chapman Dorothy Auckland 10a 172
Naisbett Mary Ann Auckland 10a 172
Turnbull Edward Auckland 10a 172

But the local index rules that one out:
Surname Forename(s) Year District
NAISBITT Mary A 1862 Durham Western
TURNBULL Edward 1862 Durham Western

so that leaves the more likely looking:
Marriages Dec 1858 (>99%)
Brown Dorothy Houghton 10a 444
Straughan John Houghton le Spring 10a 444
Taylor Mary Ann Houghton le Spring 10a 444
Turnbull Edward Houghton le Spring 10a 444

Surname Forename(s) Year District
BROWN Dorothy 1858 Durham Central
TURNBULL Edward 1858 Durham Central
Register No. - Entry No. - District
DCCE35/1 - 367 - Durham Central (1858)
[DCCE35=St. Mary, West Rainton]


1861 England Census Transcription
Street:FARM HOUSE
County:Durham
Parish:W RAINTON
City:
Town:
Ecclesiastical District:RAINTON
Parliamentary Borough:
Registration District:HOUGHTON-LE-SPRING
Registration Sub-District 2 Hetton-le-Hole
Enumeration District:12 E
Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:3757 Folio:43 Page:6

EDWARD TURNBULL 1835 26 Houghton-le-Spring, Durham HEAD M Mason (Master)
DOROTHY TURNBULL 1840 21 W Rainton, Durham WIFE M
GEORGE TURNBULL 1860 1[1 1/2] Coxhoe, Durham SON
EDWARD TURNBULL 1861 0[4m] W Rainton, Durham SON




Some look ups at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND

name: Edward Turnbull
age:
spouse's name: Dorothy Brown
spouse's age:
event date: 27 Nov 1858
event place: West Rainton, Durham, England
father's name: Edward Turnbull
spouse's father's name: James Brown
marital status: Single
spouse's marital status: Single
indexing project (batch) number: M01290-2
system origin: England-EASy
gs film number: 1514524
reference id: 367
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NXGF-8XN


name: John William Mitchell
gender: Male
christening date: 02 Mar 1890
christening place: Sacriston, Durham, England
birth date: 26 Dec 1889
father's name: Joseph Mitchell
mother's name: Elizabeth
indexing project (batch) number: C01395-4
system origin: England-EASy
gs film number: 1514633
reference id: item 2 p 56
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NB17-VSQ



name: Dorothy Brown
gender: Female
christening date: 15 Sep 1839
christening place: West Rainton, Durham, England
birth date: 28 Jul 1839
father's name: James Brown
mother's name: Dorothy
indexing project (batch) number: C02134-4
system origin: England-EASy
gs film number: 1514523
reference id: yr 1835-1846 p 78
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NTS8-SJY

mgnv

mgnv Report 27 Feb 2013 22:06

Firstly, lets use http://www.northeastbmd.org.uk/ to confirm Dea selected the right bridal pairing:
Surname Forename(s) Year District
TURNBULL Elizabeth 1888 Durham Western
MITCHELL Joseph 1888 Durham Western
Register No. - Entry No. - District
R60AUCK - 36 - Durham Western (1888)


This looks like the John in 1891:
Births Mar 1890 (>99%)
Mitchell John William Chester le S. 10a 484

but the closest to Joseph is:
Births Sep 1888 (>99%)
TURNBULL Joseph Mitchell Chester Le S 10a 528

Since the marr was 1888q4, if this is our Joseph, we see he was born out of wedlock.
If I click on the 528 page # link, I see there's no other Joseph's indexed on p 528.
So it looks like Joseph's dad was not named on the b.cert (i.e., there's no index entry for Joseph Mitchell Mitchell).
I've no doubt Joseph Mitchell was his dad, and I think his name makes this clear.
I know that, later, if Joseph's parents were free to marry at the time of his birth, and they did later marry, their marr legitimized Joseph's birth, and they could go down to the rego office, and re-rego the birth, adding the dad's name if they wanted.
However, I don't know what the law was in the late 19th cent. Note Joseph snr names Joseph jnr as his son on the 1891 census.

Under English common law, Joseph's legal name was whatever he said it was, or, seeing as he was a minor in 1891, whatever his parents said it was.

We can also click on the "Chester Le S" link in the above FreeBMD hits, then the more info "here" link to see the villages, etc., in Chester Le Street RD.
Birtley and Edmondsley are listed there, but not Kimblesworth which was abt 2km SE of Edmondsley and 4km SSW of Chester Le Street.
I can look up Kimblesworth in Lewis (1848):
KIMBLESWORTH, formerly a parish, in the union of Durham, W. division of Chester ward, N. division of the county of Durham, 3 miles (N. by W.) from Durham
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=445
Now, the 1837 rego districts were based on the poor-law unions, and we find Kimblesworth wa, indeed, in Durham RD.

1881 England Census
Civil parish: Newbottle
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: Hodgsons Yard
Registration district: Houghton Le Spring
Sub-registration district: Houghton Le Spring
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Piece: 4973 Folio: 4 Page Number: 2

Edward Turnbull 46 Houghton Le Spring, Durham, England Head M Masons
Dorothy Turnbull 47 West Rainton, Durham, England Wife M
Edward Turnbull 20 West Rainton, Durham, England Son Masons Lab
Anthony Turnbull 14 Houghton Le Spring, Durham, England Son Scholar
Elizabeth Turnbull 12 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter Scholar
Dorothy Turnbull 8 Houghton Le Spring, Durham, England Daughter Scholar
Esther Turnbull 5 Houghton Le Spring, Durham, England Daughter
Mary A. Turnbull 4 Newbottle, Durham, England Daughter

Deaths Jun 1895 (>99%)
Turnbull Edward 60 Chester le S. 10a 294

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 27 Feb 2013 13:25

~A round of applause for Dea and Reggie :-D

Of course, the certificates are needed to confirm all of this.

As Joseph Mitchell (Turnbull) appears to be illigitimate, you are unlikely to ever find out the name of his birth father, but at least you've a good shot at tracing his mother's side of the family

Dea

Dea Report 27 Feb 2013 12:12

IF he is the one I have posted above from 1891, then although he was registed as Joseph Mitchell Turnbull, his parents were not yet married - this would be their marriage:


Marriages Dec 1888 (>99%)
HESELTINE William Auckland 10a 304
MATTHEWS Lucy Auckland 10a 304
***MITCHELL Joseph Auckland 10a 304
***TURNBULL Elizabeth Auckland 10a 304

Maybe this goes some way to explaining the use of the two names?

Dea x

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 11:59

For whatever reason, it would seem that Joseph alternated between Turnbull and Mitchell.............

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 11:53

Patricia

I copy here my post from page one.........................

Births Sep 1920 (>99%)
Turnbull Florence M Lister Gateshead 10a 2265
Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
Turnbull Lillian Lister Newcastle T. 10b 170

Births Jun 1926 (>99%)
Turnbull Joseph H Lister Chester-le-S. 10a 1161

Deaths Dec 1927 (>99%)
Turnbull Joseph H M 1 Chester-le-S. 10a 589

Patricia

Patricia Report 27 Feb 2013 11:36

Hi Dea,

Thats great! all this information sounds about right! My mother mary and her two sisters had the same surname of Mitchell. It was only William their step brother who had the different surname of Brownlee Stephenson.

I have my mums birth certificate which states she was registered in Chester-le-Street, County Durham. By her father Joseph Mitchell. Their address is given as Hawthorn Caravan, Black Fell, Birtley.

I have copies of the death certificates for him, He died on 25/8/1938 in birtley County Durham, Aged 50 yrs, from T.B. His eldest daughter Florence registered the death.

Ada died 2712/1963 at 56 Dorset Avenue, Barley Mow Estate, Birtley, County Durham. aged 75yrs. Death registered by her son William. It states she was the widow of Joseph Mithell, Coal Miner (deceased).

Patricia

Patricia Report 27 Feb 2013 11:21

Thanks again all, I have loads of information to go on now, will follow these up and let you know how I get on.

Thanks again!

Pat

Dea

Dea Report 27 Feb 2013 10:41

I think I am going to explore this for a while......

1891 census transcription details for: 286, Eleventh Street, Witton Gilbert, Sacriston
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 4122
Folio: 137
Page: 32
Reg. District: Chester Le Street
Sub District: Chester Le Street
Parish: Witton Gilbert
Enum. District: 25
Ecclesiastical District: St Peters
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 286, Eleventh Street, Witton Gilbert, Sacriston
County: Durham
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MITCHELL, Joseph Head Married M 26 1865 Coal Miner
Birtley, County Durham
MITCHELL, Elizabeth Wife Married F 22 1869
Sunderland, County Durham
MITCHELL, Joseph Son M 3 1888
Kimblesworth, County Durham
MITCHELL, John W Son M 1 1890
Edmondsley, County Durham
TURNBULL, Esther Sister In Law Single F 15 1876
Houghton-Le-Spring, County Durham


Dea x

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 10:13

Looks good Dea, but............................

Births Mar 1931 (>99%)
Mitchell Mary Lister Chester-le-S. 10a 941

Patricia needs to get the birth cert..................

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 27 Feb 2013 10:12

Returning briefly to the Mr Mitchell conundrum

Do you think it likely that your mother was baptised? If so, it is possible that the baptism entry will show both parent's name which technically should be xxxx Mitchell and Ada Turnbull. It would depend on the attitude of the particular clergyman.

Edit - cross posted with Dea! :-D

Dea

Dea Report 27 Feb 2013 10:10

Isn't there just one 'glaringly obvious' possibility, or is it too early in the morning for me???

You cite this marriage:

Marriages Dec 1919 (>99%)

Stephenson Ada Turnbull Chester le S 10a 1382
Turnbull Joseph M Stephenson Chester le S. 10a 1382


Could not 'Turnbull' also be 'Mitchell' ?? - note the middle initial !

Births Sep 1888 (>99%)
TURNBULL Joseph Mitchell *** Chester Le S 10a 528

Dea x

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 09:54

IF James O'Hara married Jane, it wasn't in England/Wales

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 09:50

Taking into account the location of her FIRST marriage, this is more likely to be ADA in 1911.

BUT......as advised above, the marriage cert will confirm her father's details


1911 census

Person: LISTER, Ada Address: 47 Fell Street Byker Newcastle on Tyne

O HARA, James Head Married4 years M 44 1867 Boiler Rivetter Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
O HARA, Jane Wife Married F 42 1869 Middlesboro Yorkshire VIEW
LISTER, Robret Stepson Single M 16 1895 Express Delivery Porter Rochester Northumbrland VIEW
LISTER, Ada Stepdaughter Single F 23 1888 Southbank Yorkshire VIEW
LISTER, Mary Stepdaughter Single F 8 1903 Gateshead Durham

Reggie

Reggie Report 27 Feb 2013 09:45

Patricia

Ada MARRIED Turnbull............I posted that info for you ....AND the births of their children, whose first names you already knew.

it was MITCHELL to whom she did NOT get married

So Mary was a HALF-sister to Florence and Lilian.........plus wee Joseph who died in infancy.

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 27 Feb 2013 00:53

Have you been able to find your mother's BC? What details are on that? Her father may be named if he registered the birth or if her mother told the Registrar that she was married to him.
Did your mother name her Mitchell father on her own MC, assuming she did marry?

If the Mitchell line has hit a brickwall, then at least you can purchase the Stephenson/Lister MC which will give her father's name and occupation (if known). Witnesses may be family members.

B,M & D certificates should be purchased from

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

And will cost £9.25 inc P&P

You need these details as previously posted to complete the form

Marriages Dec 1912
Lister, Ada (to Stephenson) - (district) Newcastle T - (Volume) 10b - (page) 199
Stephenson, Edward (to Lister) Newcastle T 10b 199

Patricia

Patricia Report 27 Feb 2013 00:21

Thats right, he died in 1937. The problem now seems to be a lack of dates/addresses for everyone. Or even christian and surnames. The people who would know these things are all dead, so I can't ask them. Also, there are so many possible answers/matches that it gets confusing and I can't be 100% sure apart from my own parents details, that the others are the right people.


Pat

Patricia

Patricia Report 27 Feb 2013 00:15

Wow! thanks for all the help reggie, how did you find all of that out? I have found the marriage of Ada Lister to Stephenson at last, but no joy with eithe Lister, or stephenson surnames and my grandfather Joseph mitchell. starting to think they never married!! No idea where to go from here, because I don't have names, or places of birth, or dates for either of my great grandparents. My paternal great grandmother led an interesting life apparently and according to my mother, her grandmother had one husband which I think had the surname mitchell, but lived with a man with the surname turnbull, Her husband mitchell migrated to America, but they never divorced as far as I know. Any ideas on a postcard please!!


Pat

Reggie

Reggie Report 26 Feb 2013 23:50

Her maiden name was LISTER.................but she would normally only use that for her first marriage.

I've posted her second marriage............and the children it produced.

There is no record of her marrying Mary's father............probably because there doesn't appear to be a death for hubby no 2 before 1931

Patricia

Patricia Report 26 Feb 2013 23:45

Sorry Reggie, but as I stated in my first thread, I am new to this and didn't realise it would make a difference, even I didn't look for stephenson because she remarried and I thought it would b e under mitchell. I can assure you it was not done on purpose.

I think you meant really as opposed to rally lol!


Pat