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1851 census Sarah if not already posted
Name:Sarah Penny
Age:35
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1816
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:James Penny
Gender:F (Female)
Where born:Stowbridge, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish:Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish:Kidderminster
Town:Kidderminster
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Sarah Thompson (of full age) did indeed marry James Penney on 2/8/1845 at Kidderminster Parish Church. She was living in the Parish of Ribbesford and gives as her father James Thompson a Stock Taker, a witness was an Elizabeth Thompson. Is there a relationship with James Thompson 1842-1879?
It seems likely that Sarah could have been a sister of James's father. When I look at familysearch.com I cannot readily find Sarah's birth with a James as a father, presumably somewhere 1816-1825 in Worcestershire. Any clues as to how I find her parents and who her siblings where (unlikely to be an only child).
Guy
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Lets look for Ellen's gran
Looking at Eliz Fisher:
From the 1847 marr, we know her dad was Richard, and she prob had a sis Alice.
Based on 1851, she should be 26 in 1841, poss recorded as 25.
Well, there's an 1841 with Richard, and prob his daur Alice, a="15", living at Bradly Hall (now replaced by Bradley Hall Trading Estate, abt 700m NE of St Wilfreds).
However, there's no Elizabeth with them - but then she's 26-ish.
There are a couple of Eliz Fishers working on farms as Female Servants - Ones on Shevington Moor, a couple of km W of town, and the other's at Mill Bridge Farm, 1.5 km NE of Bradley Hall.
The latter is with Mary Fisher, a="20", another F.S. - this h/h gets my vote.
Baptism: 18 Dec 1814 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Elizabeth Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Worthington
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Asst. Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 17, Entry 132
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 9 Jun 1816 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Mary Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Worthington
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Asst. Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 30, Entry 240
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 15 Feb 1818 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Ann Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Worthington
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 42, Entry 335
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 17 Mar 1822 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Alice Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Worthington
Occupation: Farmer
Notes: 4th daughter
Baptised by: William Hodgson, Asst. Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 75, Entry 600
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 10 Oct 1824 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Ellen Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Standish
Occupation: Farmer
Notes: 5th daughter
Baptised by: Geo. Whitlock, Asst Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 104, Entry 832
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 29 Sep 1833 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs.
Margery Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice
Abode: Standish
Occupation: Farmer
Notes: 6th daughter
Baptised by: Geo. Whitlock, Asst Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 197, Entry 1575
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Looking at just the girls names, and at Eliz's girls names, provides further circumstantial corroboration that this is the right family.
1841 England Census Transcription
Street:BRADLY HALL
Parish:STANDISH
City:
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
House Number:
House Name:
Registration District:WIGAN
Town:STANDISH
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:527 Book:15 Folio:22 Page:2
RICHARD FISHER 1791 50 Farmer
ALICE FISHER 1791 50
WILLIAM FISHER 1816 25
ANN FISHER 1821 20
JAMES FISHER 1821 20
ALICE FISHER 1826 15
ELLEN FISHER 1826 15
BENJAMIN FISHER 1829 12
RICHARD FISHER 1831 10
MARGARY FISHER 1834 7
[All have pob=Lancashire - remember adults (15+) were supposed to have ages rounded down to a mult of 5 in 1841]
1841 England Census Transcription
Street:MILL BRIDGE FARM
Parish:STANDISH
City:
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
House Number:
House Name:
Registration District:WIGAN
Town:WORTHINGTON
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:527 Book:17 Folio:3 Page:1
BENJAMIN ASPINALL 1791 50 Farmer
JAMES DAWBER 1821 20 M.S.
ELIZABETH FISHER 1816 25 F.S.
MARY FISHER 1821 20 F.S.
[All have pob=Lancashire]
1851 England Census Transcription
Street:
Parish:STANDISH
City:
County:Lancashire
Division Of County:LANCASHIRE NORTHERN DIVISION
Ecclesiastical District:STANDISH
Hamlet:
House Name:BRADLEY HALL
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:WIGAN
Enumeration District:4D
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2198 Folio:190 Page:25
RICHARD FISHER 1792 59 Worthington, Lancashire HEAD M Landed Proprietor 93 Acres employing on it Four Labrs. Proprietor of Coal Mine
ALICE FISHER 1791 60 Worthington, Lancashire WIFE M
WILLIAM FISHER 1814 37 Worthington, Lancashire SON U Farmers Son
ANN FISHER 1818 33 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER U
ALICE FISHER 1822 29 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER U
ELLEN FISHER 1825 26 Standish, Lancashire DAUGHTER
BENJAMIN FISHER 1829 22 Standish, Lancashire SON U Colliery Clerk
RICHARD FISHER 1831 20 Standish, Lancashire SON U Colliery Agent
MARGERY FISHER 1834 17 Standish, Lancashire DAUGHTER
MARY YATES 1817 34 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER W
ELLEN YATES 1846 5 Coppull, Lancashire GRAND DAUGHTER Scholar
ALICE YATES 1848 3 Wigan, Lancashire GRAND DAUGHTER
THOMAS YATES 1850 1 Wigan, Lancashire GRAND SON
[Coppull is a township in Standish parish, but in Chorley RD]
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1845
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FISHER Mary YATES Richard All Saints, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C33/6/16
Marriage: 5 Aug 1845 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Richard Yates - 51 Coachman Bachelor of Wigan
Mary Fisher - 29 Servant Spinster of Wigan
Groom's Father: Thomas Yates, Farmer
Bride's Father: Richard Fisher, Farmer
Witness: James Fisher; Ann Grundy
Married by Licence by: John Lomas Curate
Register: Marriages 1845 - 46, Page 8, Entry 16
Source: LDS Film 1885695
Baptism: 22 Oct 1845 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Ellen Yates - daughter of Richard Yates & Mary
Abode: Coppull Moor
Occupation: Coachman
Baptised by: G D Brown Curate
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 152
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1847
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
YATES Alice Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/22/309
Baptism: 26 Jan 1848 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Alice Yates - daughter of Richard Yates & Mary
Abode: Wigan
Occupation: Coachman
Baptised by: John Kelly Curate
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 175, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
YATES Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/27/218
Baptism: 16 Jan 1850 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Thomas Merrick Yates - son of Richard Yates & Mary
Abode: Wigan
Occupation: Toll-Keeper
Baptised by: E Layng Curate
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 203, Entry 2
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
YATES Richard 58 Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/25/221
Burial: 17 Oct 1850 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Richard Yates -
Age: 58
Abode: Wigan
Buried by: R. H. Whitworth Curate
Register: Burials 1840 - 1856, Page 197, Entry 1576
Source: LDS Film 1526141
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James Penney born 1822 -1893 Kidderminster married Sarah Thompson ?? J/A/S 1845 V18 P405 in kidderminster.
She was born between 1818 -1822 in Stourbridge.
He is with a Sarah 1851/61 census.
1891 James Penny with Niece Ellen nee (Ratcliffe) and Great/Grand nieces and nephews,so it looks like Sarah thompson was sister to James Thompson.
Maryb.
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Looking at Ellen's side:
Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RATCLIFFE Margaret Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/4/339
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1851
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RATCLIFFE Alice Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/143
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RATCLIFFE Ellen Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/471
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1847
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
RATCLIFFE Henry FISHER Elizabeth St. Wilfred, Standish Wigan & Leigh C28/1/481
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 8 Sep 1847 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Henry Ratcliffe - Of Full Age Farmer Bachelor of Langtree
Elizabeth Fisher - Of Full Age Spinster of Bradley Hall
Groom's Father: Henry Ratcliffe, Farmer
Bride's Father: Richard Fisher, Farmer
Witness: Alice Fisher; James Darbyshire
Married by Licence by: Geo. Whitlock Curate
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 241, Entry 481
Source: LDS Film 1526141
[Looking at the half dozen marrs on each side of ours, Jas Darbyshire is a witness on 9 of the 12 - probably he's some rellie of the parish clerk]
Baptism: 27 Aug 1849 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Margaret Ratcliffe - daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth
Abode: Langtree
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: E Layng Curate
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 200
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 25 Jul 1852 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Ellen Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth
Abode: Langtree
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: W H Brandeth Rector
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 232
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 17 May 1854 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Margery Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth
Abode: Langtree
Occupation: Farmer
Baptised by: James P Yeo Assit Curate
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 251
Source: LDS Film 1526140
1851 England Census Transcription
Street:
Parish:STANDISH
City:
County:Lancashire
Division Of County:LANCASTER NORTHERN DIVISION
Ecclesiastical District:
Hamlet:STANDISH
House Name:OLD HALE LANGTREE
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:WIGAN
Enumeration District:4C
Source: Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2198 Folio:165 Page:20
HENRY RATCLIFFE 1774 77 HEAD
ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1777 74 WIFE
HENRY RATCLIFFE 1822 29 SON
ELIZABETH RATCLIFFE 1815 36 DAUGHTER IN LAW
MARGARET RATCLIFFE 1850 1 GRAND DAUGHTER
ALICE RATCLIFFE 1851 0 GRAND DAUGHTER
MARGARET RIGBY 1787 64 SISTER IN LAW
JANE CLOSE 1828 23 SERVANT
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1853
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
RATCLIFFE Ellen 76 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/5
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
RATCLIFFE Henry 83 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/299
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1857
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
RATCLIFFE Henry 35 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/6/31
1861 England Census Transcription
Street:CROSS FARM
County:Lancashire
Parish:STANDISH
City:
Town:
Ecclesiastical District:MANCHESTER
Parliamentary Borough:
Registration District:WIGAN
Registration Sub-District 1 Standish
Enumeration District:2
Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2767 Folio:38 Page:17
ROBERT PATTON 1833 28 Standish, Lancashire HEAD M Farmer ? acres employing 1 man
ELIZABETH PATTON 1816 45 Standish, Lancashire WIFE M Farmers wife
ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1853 8 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar
MARGREY RATCLIFFE 1855 6 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar
ALICE GORE 1846 15 Shevington, Lancashire SERVANT U Farm Serv
MARGARET RIGBY 1796 65 Eccleston, Lancashire BOARDER U Fund holder
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Thank you, I've lean't a lot today. Regretably I haven't found a Toy Merchant in those James Thompsons born in 1844, sadly the "Mangle workers assistant" wasn't one of my relatives!
Guy
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Guy, you need to look at the images, not the transcriptions, to find occupations. As Reggie said, they are recorded on all cencuses but only transcribed (on most sites) on the 1881, except for Scotland when on Ancestry they are transcribed on all the cencuses.
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Thanks. The suggestion to try to find a James Thompson in the 1871 census whose occupation was a Toy Merchant doesn't seem to work since no occupations were given then. He could have been illegitimate, I was not aware there were no penalties for failing to register births until 1875!. He could indeed have come from Scotland or Ireland for all I currently know. I'm trying to find some earlier THompson connection and there don't seem to be too many direct clues BUT enter James Penney. Family gossip suggest that one of his wives was a Thompson, sister to James's dad. So "Maddie's" news on that is well worth researching and I will pursue that line - many thanks.
Guy Mayers
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Until 1875, there were no penalties for not registering births.
As he was almost certainly illegitimate, the odds are that his birth wasn't registered.
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I wonder if this could be your James penney
Name: PENNEY, James
Registration district: [?] Kidderminster
County: Worcestershire
Year of registration: 1845
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 18
MarriageFinder™: [?] James Penney married one of the following people Transcript
BAKER, Phoebe VIEW
GILES, Mary VIEW
GOODMAN, Mary Ann VIEW
THOMPSON, Sarah
1851
1851 England Census about James Penny
Name: James Penny
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Penny
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Kiddr, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Kidderminster
Town: Kidderminster
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 1l
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 43
Piece: 2038
Folio: 289
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
James Penny 28
Sarah Penny 35
Page no: [?] 405
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Guy, he might not have been born in England - the census has James Thompsons of the right age born in Scotland and Ireland.
You could try looking at the images for every unmarried John Thompson on the 1871 and see if you can find one who is a Toy Merchant - bit of a big job though!
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Yes the 1881 census shows the recently widowed Ellen Thompson (nee Ratcliffe) and her three young children living at <alvern Rd, Worcester St John Bedwardine and the 1891 census shows they had moved to Spring Bank, Coventry Str Kidderminster. I'm also interested in the "James Penney" who was then living with them who family gossip says had three wives (long before divorce was a possibility!)
I don't know where James Thompson was born, it seems there were rather a lot of births of that name and I have no clues as to District etc and 28 years back from April 1872 could be 1843 or 1844. There seem to have been 87 such births in 1843 and 78 in 1844, how do I find the right one assuming he gave his correct age at marriage?
I have not got his death certificate since I don't think it will tell me much about his parents but I believe he died in Kidderminster in 1879.
Any help, clues or ideas would be much appreciated.
Guy Mayers
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only death I can see that fits age ,after last child born and before 1881 census?
Name:
James Thomson
Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1845
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1879
Age at Death:
34
Registration district:
Newport
Inferred County:
Shropshire
Volume:
6a
Page:
457
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1891
Name: Ellen Thompson
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Standish, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
James Penny 60 - widower
Ellen Thompson 39 - widow - born Standish Lancs
Margaret A Thompson 18
Henry F Thompson 16
Alice Thompson 14
James H Martin 27 - lodger
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Is this the family in 1881, with Ellen already a widow?
1881 England Census
about Ellen Thompson
Name: Ellen Thompson
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street Address: Malvern Rd
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Lady
Registration district: Worcester
Sub-registration district: West Worcester
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2913
Folio: 91
Page Number: 77
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Thompson 29
Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - b Westonsupermare
Henry Fisher Thompson 6
Alice Thompson 4
James Penney 58
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It would help to see the census you have found them on.
Is this the right family ?
1881
Name: Ellen Thompson
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street Address: Malvern Rd
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Lady
Registration district: Worcester
Sub-registration district: West Worcester
Ellen Thompson 29 - widow - born Wigan
Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - Weston super Mare
Henry Fisher Thompson 6 - Worcester
Alice Thompson 4 - Worcester
James Penney 58 - visitor
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