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Thanks for that
I hope to obtain all in due course

There seam to be too many Alberts,Williams
Harrys,Arthurs,Alfreds and Annes,Annies etc
a lot to get to grips with but now I will get
all the evidence I can

Thank you once again
Graham

Graham, just a word about William Percy Gordon's birth certificate. When he was born in 1886 it seems that Annie was still legally married to Albert Course. They certainly didn't divorce (that would have been unlikely but I checked anyhow) and she and Albert Herniman did not marry, although she may have been known as his wife no ceremony took place.

Now, when she registered the birth, if she went on her own to do so then the birth would be recorded in her legal married name of Course and her real husband would be named as the father (even if he wasn't) - that was the practice. That's also how if a widow had a child several years after her husband had died the late husband would be named as the father. The exception would be if the biological father also went to register the birth, as would seem to be the case with Harry - Albert Herniman acknowledged paternity so went with her to register the birth.

In cases like this I would personally always take a baptism record as being more honest and truthful than a birth certificate.

I am trying to find Harry's marriage certificate to see what it says - he may have married around 1908 to about 1918 to Elsie ?? as his daughter may have been born around 1918 in camberwell-- I think must now look for things like Henry albert .instead of Harry_____?
birth certs of daughter Peggy I---for parents and baptism certs

Very confusing I know-- unfortunatly the person with the key to all this took it to the grave around 1998 ( i think) and would not disclose what she knew as she did not want to offend (but dont know who)

who knows???
regards
g

Harry thought to have been born 1878 was actually born 1888. I agree

when his death was registered in 1974 that a mistake was made with his age . If he really had been born 1878 then surely he would have been on the 1881 census?
---- I do not think he was 98 yrs when he died

It's most likely that Albert Herniman was the father of William Percy----I dont know ?? on the bith cert it says father was Albert Course--mother Anne Turner address Lyon St Islington

Harry who knows but your info is good I will pursue when we get some fine weather


thanks
gdc

That looks likely Chris - by the 1871 census Henry seems to have remarried to a Cordelia.

(so could be the below)

Baptism
County Somerset
Place Corfe
Church St Nicholas
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 10 Oct 1858
Forename Albert
Sex M
FatherForename Henry
MotherForename MaryAnne
FatherSurname HERNIMAN
MotherSurname
Abode
FatherOccupation farmer

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Graham, I know we've posted a lot of info and it takes quite a bit of digesting.

You don't need to hope to find the baptism records - I've posted them above. I'll send them to you.

You did mention in your last pm to me that there was mention of Ricardo in Harry's name so looks like we're on the right track.

It looks like Harry was actually 86 when he died (despite what the death record says - you can't rely on those for accuracy).

I would recommend buying Harry's marriage certificate to see what it says - can you tell us who he married and when?

You said on page 1 that William PG was your grandfather and therefore on other posts you've noted Albert Course as being your great grandfather, obviously the info I've found now shows that Albert Herniman was your great grandfather so you'll need to follow his family back.

in answer to your questions:-

Harry Partridge did die in Bournemouth in 1974.

Do you have the death certificate? no

How do you know that it is the correct Harry Partridge?he's related

Did he marry, if so, have you that marriage certificate for his age?no

At the moment I would say that Harry Partridge, 1878, is actually Henry, 1888.

Have you got the death reference for Mr Herniman from drowning in the River Lee?' no- but someone is sending a copy of the1891 newspaper artical to me

In addition, you have not commented in the 10 year difference in age for Henry/Harry.
Your opinion, please? this is probabley to do with the secretcy at the time as
probabley no birth cert was available and age was estimated although my gfather died at the age of 93

I hope to find the baptismal records to solve some of these anomalies

regards
gdc

Graham,
We have already posted that 1901
10 Mar 2013 11:27

Can I repeat my questions which you have not answered?

'You have Harry Partridge died in Bournemouth in 1974.

Do you have the death certificate?
How do you know that it is the correct Harry Partridge?
Did he marry, if so, have you that marriage certificate for his age?

At the moment I would say that Harry Partridge, 1878, is actually Henry, 1888.

Have you got the death reference for Mr Herniman from drowning in the River Lee?'

In addition, you have not commented in the 10 year difference in age for Henry/Harry.
Your opinion, please?

Thanks all

I have found in 1901 census

1901 Census Household Record
Household information
Address 15 Upper Westbourne Villas
Civil Parish Aldrington

Ecclesiastical Parish St Leonard
Parliamentary Borough or Division Lewes
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District Hove
Administrative County Sussex

Householder 1
Name Anne Partridge
Relation to Head of Family Wife
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 45
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born London Islington

Householder 2
Name Henry Partridge
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 13
Sex Male

Where Born London Homerton

Householder 3
Name John Partridge
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 49
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Coachman
Employment Status
Where Born Hereford Eastnor

Householder 4
Name Percy Partridge
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 15
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Errand Boy
Employment Status
Where Born London Islington

Householder 5
Name Anne Turner
Relation to Head of Family Mother In Law
Condition as to Marriage Widow
Age Last Birthday 71
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born London St Andrews

these look good and explains how the family got
to the south coast and the witness on the marriage cert

will check the various names further as well.
some where also i did see reference to the Herniman name
where the wife is listed sons etc but father deseased in
east london area may not be connected but interesing if i
can find it again

THANKS

regards
Graham
:-) :-) :-)

So William Percy Gordon and Harry were full brothers, not half brothers. That's why they stayed with their mother and the other children stayed with Albert.

It seems that William Percy chose to retain the surname in which he was registered whereas Harry chose to be known by his stepfather's name.

Found the baptisms:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Henry Arthur Ricardo Hernaman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 10 Jul 1894
Father's Name: Albert Hernaman (Traveller - deceased)
Mother's name: Annie Hernaman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Haggerston St Columba
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address: 196 Kingsland Road

Baptised the same day was his bother Percy Gordon Hernaman, also stating Albert as his father.

No actual birthdates given but for some reason Annie has decided to get them baptised a few years on.
..................................................................................................................

Percy's birth registered in his mother's present married name:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915

Name: William Percy G Course
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1886
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 351

but Harry registered with his father's surname:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915

Name: Henry Arthur R Herniman
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1888
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 486

That's it Chris - what a star, I've been giving myself a headache looking for them. I'll book mark that site.

I think that proves that Harry thought to have been born 1878 was actually born 1888. It's quite possible that when his death was registered in 1974 that a mistake was made with his age (I did that when registering my own dad's). If he really had been born 1878 then surely he would have been on the 1881 census?

It's most likely that Albert Herniman was the father of William Percy and Harry and they took their stepfather's name later.

1891 (possible?, with Dalston)
HIRMMAN, Albert Head Married M 32 1859 Traveller Minerals
Somersetshire
HIRMMAN, Annie Wife Married F 33 1858 Dressmaker
London
HIRMMAN, Perry Son M 5 1886
London
HIRMMAN, Harry Son M 2 1889
London
Piece: 188
Folio: 118
Page: 32
Registration District: Hackney
Civil Parish: Hackney
Municipal Borough:
Address: 160, Culford Road, Hackney
County: London

Chris :)

http://www.census1891.com/streets-c.htm

(useful link for 1891 London)

I was looking at this family, because they were in London, but have tea to make
1881 England Census
James Herniman Age: 35 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sarah Herniman
Gender: Male Where born: St Giles, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Giles in the Fields
County/Island: London Country: England
Street Address: 80 Dudley St Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Blacklead Maker
Registration district: St GilesSub-registration district: St Giles, North
ED, institution, or vessel: 7c Piece: 327 Folio: 69 Page Number: 24
James Herniman 35
Sarah Herniman 26
Alice Herniman 9
James Herniman 6
Charles Herniman 1
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 327; Folio: 69; Page: 24; GSU roll: 1341071.

There were two Albert Herniman's born around the same time, both Somerset.

One was born North Petherton, son of Job and Jemima, was an RSPCA inspector and married an Ada - have followed him through to 1911.

The other was born Corfe and was the son of Henry & Cordelia - can't find him after 1871 (but haven't tried very hard yet).

Can't find the address of 106 Catford Road given in the newspaper.

Thanks
I was trying H*man not H*nan. etc etc.

Patchem, his body was found Monday 15 June 1891. It would be this death:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915

Name: Albert Herminan
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1891
Age at Death: 33
Registration district: West Ham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 148

I can see marriages for Alfred Henry and James Edward Herniman, not Albert.
But then we do not know that she married him.
Not yet found him on censuses.
Was the suicide in 1891 after the census, or dates not clear?

Thanks, just read your added bit after I posted.

Cannot see his death in free bmd.

Have found a newspaper article from June 1891 where an Albert Herniman (32) committed suicide in the River Lea whilst temporarily insane.

He was a traveller of 106 Catford Road, Dalston.

His wife (un-named) and two children were left penniless and the jury raised a subscription for them

EDIT: The newspaper was the Essex Newsman Saturday 20 June 1891. It states his body was found floating in the river on the Monday and the inquest was held on the Wednesday at Leyton Town Hall.