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GANGE & MOSS FAMILIES HAMPSTEAD/ HANOVER SQ 1910

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Anne

Anne Report 30 Mar 2013 09:29

I understand your point about cousins but was told by my mother that her mother (Isabel) had lived with cousins. Also it seems that Frank Moss married a Moss!

I haven't traced the Pirie family forward - they seem to based in Scotland whereas there are Gange families living in the St. George hanover Square area and that seems to be where Frank Moss was born. Seems more likely.

I haven't found Isabella's father death certificate. I was told that he died within 6 months of his wife which puts him the 1895/6 category. I can't find him in England so assume he died in Marseilles. I did try the French connection sometime ago but Marseilles was not on line. Will try again.

But the good news is that through Genes Reunited I have been told of a Samuel Gange born in Taunton who was a telegraphist so that seems very promising.
Thanks for your help and if you find anything else ..... I'd love to hear about it.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 30 Mar 2013 08:50

Just re-reading this post. I had missed in the opening post that you said Sarah Gange's maiden name was Pirie.

Sarah's mother was married more than once.

1875 PIRIE SARAH STOTT MCKENZIE DUNN F 52 ST NICHOLAS ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/01 0066

I think that you have to remember that the relationship of cousin need not mean first cousin or she may have been the cousin of the wife rather than the head of the household.

Often people referred to as cousins, implying first cousin are actually a different generation. For example as my Grandmother was the youngest of 10 children with more than 20 years between the oldest and her, my mother had "Aunts" who were in fact her first cousins and their children who Mum thought were first cousins were actually the children of her cousins!

Have you traced forward from Isabella's maternal Grandmother please?

Have you found Isabella's father's death please? Do you have the certificate?



patchem

patchem Report 30 Mar 2013 07:49

Just taking the Scottish connection back:
1851 Scotland Census
Sarah McKenzie Age: 27 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relationship: Head
Mother's name: Margt Durm
Gender: Female Where born: Aberdeen, aberdeensh
Parish Number: 168A Civil parish: Aberdeen South County: Aberdeenshire Address: 9 Carmelite Street
Occupation: Fishmonger
ED: 2 Page: 65 Household schedule number: 337 Line: 12 Roll: CSSCT1851_39
Sarah McKenzie 27
John McKenzie 8
Isabella McKenzie 5
Margt Durm 56 Montrose, forfarshire
Source Citation: Parish: Aberdeen South; ED: 2; Page: 65; Line: 12; Roll: CSSCT1851_39; Year: 1851.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Mar 2013 21:50

1861

Name: Sarah Pirie
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship: Daughter
Mother's name: Sarah Pirie
Gender: Female
Where born: St Nicholas, Aberdeen
Registration number: 168A
Registration district: St Nicholas
Civil parish: Aberdeen St Nicholas
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 11 Carmelite Lane
ED: 37
Household schedule number: 142
Line: 21
Roll: CSSCT1861_25
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Pirie 38
John Mckenzie 18 Son
Isabella Mckenzie 14
Geroge Pirie 7
Catherine Pirie 6
Sarah Pirie 4
Mary Hutchson 21
Hellen Duthie 72
Eliza Douglas 20

So looks like her maiden name was Pirie but her mother had been married twice? Fisrt to a McKenzie then to a Pirie.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Mar 2013 21:40

Just trying to find Sarah on earlier census to see who she was living with - if the were relatives.

???

1871

Name: Sarah Perie
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Registration number: 685/2
Registration district: St Andrew
Civil parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: 12 Antigua St
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 62
Household schedule number: 64
Line: 18
Roll: CSSCT1871_160
Household Members: Name Age
John R Mckenzie 28
Mary Mckenzie 25
Leolis D B C Mckenzie 5
Archibald C Mckenzie 3
John L Mckenzie 2
Isabella Chisholm 25
Sarah Perie 14
Sarah Chisholm 2
Adam Chisholm 4 Mo
Barbara Hood 16

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Mar 2013 21:29

On the 1891 census Sarah Gange is listed as a Marine Engineer's wife.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Mar 2013 21:18

Where did her parents die please? Have you their death certificates?

EDIT

Her mother's death from Scotlandspeople?

1895 GANGE SARAH PIRIE GAUGE STOT MCKENZIE F 38 GLENMUICK, TULLICH AND GLENGAIRN /ABERDEEN 201/00 0010

So from that there were 4 other surnames that her mother was known by?

Can you please give the details from that death certificate including the names of her parents, mothers maiden surname and any other married names for Sarah?

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 20:55

What information have you got from Samuel Gange's marriage records?
Thank-you.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 20:49

Henry Moss before his marriage
1851 England Census
Henry Cross Age: 31 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Servant Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Mitcham, Surrey, England
Civil parish: St George Hanover Square County/Island: Middlesex Country: England
Occupation: valet
Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: May Fair
ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Household schedule number: 163 Piece: 1476 Folio: 329 Page Number: 29
George Gilbert 55
xxxxHenry Cross 31
Rachel Braithwaite 27
Emma Cannon 29
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1476; Folio: 329; Page: 29; GSU roll: 87799.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 20:40

If this is Charlotte in 1851, she has to get back for her wedding in a few days, census 30th March, wedding 19th April.
1851 England Census
Charlotte Spratt Age: 28 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Servant
Gender: F (Female)
Civil parish: Watford Town: Leavesden
County/Island: Hertfordshire Country: England
Registration district: Watford Sub-registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 4b Household schedule number: 12 Piece: 1714 Folio: 364 Page Number: 6
William Hyam 46
Jane Hyam 46
Hannah Wynn 9
George Wakeford 30
Richard Germin 21
John Gravestock 19
Hadacho Tropwell 35
Betsey Getson 21
xxxCharlotte Spratt 28
Emily Smith 22
Mary Ladel 30
Emma Irish 24
Eliza Rickson 21
Phebe Jonnis 21
Harriett Surtcliff 9
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1714; Folio: 364; Page: 6; GSU roll: 193622.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 20:22

1861 England Census
Henry Moss Age: 41 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Servant Gender: Male Where born: Mitcham, Surrey, England
Civil parish: St George Hanover Square County/Island: Middlesex Country: England
Occupation: servant
Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: May Fair
ED, institution, or vessel: 14 Household schedule number: 26 Piece: 46 Folio: 19 Page Number: 6
George Hibbert 63
xxxxx Henry Moss 41
Merella Evans 35
Eliza Potter 26
Sarah Harker 20
Elizabeth Westlake 26
Mary Kitchen 29
Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 46; Folio: 19; Page: 6; GSU roll: 542563.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 29 Mar 2013 20:11

To be honest Anne, I thought it a little odd about both Isabella's husband and father both working for the Eastern Telegraph Company.

You say Samuel Gange died c1895. Thomas Bickford Cole would only have been around 17/18 then, it's not impossible that's how the connection was made but seems a bit improbable.

EDIT: I see Edward was a commercial clerk in 1901 and a telegraphic clerk in 1911. What a shame they didn't have to give employers names!

Anne

Anne Report 29 Mar 2013 17:00

Isabel Gange did marry Thomas Bickford Cole and I have all his details on file. Isabel's parents died within 6 months of each other when she was 15/16 and I was told by my mother, Isabel's daughter, that she travelled down from Aberdeen as she was a young orphan to live with her cousin(s) who were wealthy in Hampstead.

It took me a time to find Frank Moss as I couldn't read his name properly on Isabel's wedding certificate and also his place of residence in Hampstead was spelled wrongly.

Evidently as Thomas Bickford Cole and his late father in law both worked for Eastern Telegraph, Isabel must have met Thomas through her father.

But still no connection between the Moss family and the Gange famly - yet.
And there are very few Samuel Gange born in the 1840-1950s so can't find Isabel's father. I am trying all avenues.
Anne

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 16:48

Henry Moss (Gentleman's servant)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Age: 31
Spouse Name: Charlotte Spratt
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 19 Apr 1851
Parish: St Pancras All Saints
Borough: Camden
Father Name: James Moss
Spouse Father Name: John Spratt
Register Type: Parish Register

One of the witnesses is probably Edward Gayner. I thought Gange mis-written, but too big a mistake.

Charlottte is in Somerset in 1841, Coombeflorey, Combe Florey, Somerset,

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 16:26

1861 England Census
Frank Moss Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Charlotte Moss
Gender: Male Where born: St Georges, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St George Hanover Square
Ecclesiastical parish: St George County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: May Fair
ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Household schedule number: 204 Piece: 46 Folio: 10 Page Number: 28
Charlotte Moss 35 Combylory, Somerset Butler's Wife?
Frank Moss 4
Emily Moss 6
Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 46; Folio: 10; Page: 28; GSU roll: 542563.

Births Dec 1856
Moss Frank St Geo Hannover Sq 1a 189

Births Sep 1854
Moss Emily St. Geo. Han Sq 1a 169

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 16:18

??
With a Father Richard:
1841 England Census
Jas Moss Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Gender: Male Civil parish: St Marylebone
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex Country: England
Registration district: St Marylebone
Piece: 680 Book: 5 Folio: 16 Page Number: 24
Layah Moss 30 Sarah
Ruhol Moss 30 Richard Coachman
Richd Moss 9
Jas Moss 5
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 680; Book: 5; Civil Parish: St Marylebone; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 5; Folio: 16; Page: 24; Line: 21; GSU roll: 438796.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 15:51

1861 England Census
James Moss Age: 25 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary J Moss
Gender: Male Where born: Carshalton, Essex, England
Civil parish: Paddington Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Middlesex Country: England
Occupation: Coach Painter
Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St Mary Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 27 Household schedule number: 441
Piece: 6 Folio: 119 Page Number: 10
James Moss 25
Mary J Moss 24
Harriett Fishlock 45
Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 6; Folio: 119; Page: 10; GSU roll: 542555.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 15:44

Is this Edith Rose's family in 1861, as her mother is now from Ireland
1861 England Census
James Edward Moss Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Moss
Gender: Male Where born: St Dunstan City of London, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Southwark St John Horsleydown
County/Island: Surrey Country: England
Occupation: numerical painter
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: St John Horsleydown
ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Household schedule number: 76 Piece: 318
James Edward Moss 21
Mary Moss 21 Ireland Mitchelstown
Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 318; Folio: 81; Page: 11; GSU roll: 542613.

??
Marriages Jun 1861
McGREGOR Mary Jane St Geo Han Sq 1a 423
Moss James St. Geo. Han. Sq. 1a 423


Added:
Rereading, Shirley's marriage to Fishlock looks better.

This is the wrong family, IGNORE

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 29 Mar 2013 15:32

To help us work back:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Isabel Emily Gange
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Age: 32
Spouse Name: Edward Thomas Bickford Cole
Spouse Age: 35
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 24 Oct 1912
Parish: St Lawrence Jewry
Borough: City of London
Father Name: Samuel Gange
Spouse Father Name: William Cole - Clerk
Register Type: Parish Register

Neither married before.

Edward Cole was a clerk in Eastern Telegraph Co and lived King Street ?

Isabel lived 32 Greencroft Gardens (as per 1911)

Samuel Gange was also a clerk in Eastern Telegraph Co (it doesn't say he was deceased but maybe the question wasn't asked?)

Witnesses: Frank Moss and Frederick Albert Fraser.

patchem

patchem Report 29 Mar 2013 15:22

1871 England Census
Edith R Moss Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James Moss Mother's name: Mary T Moss
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England Civil parish: Kensington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: London
Country: England Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 38a Household schedule number: 170 Piece: 45 Folio: 51 Page Number: 32
James Moss 34 painter London
Mary T Moss 33 London
Maude M Moss 7 London
Edith R Moss 5 London
Isabella Etherington 38
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 45; Folio: 51; Page: 32; GSU roll: 824567.

No other children showing in 1881
Maud unmarried in 1891.