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CATHERINE AND STEPHEN CAIN.

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Dianna

Dianna Report 11 Apr 2013 15:48

Need help with an Irish question.

Catherine (10 yrs old) and Stephen (11 yrs) Cain left Liverpool for Canada on the Parisian ship on September 26, 1891. Their parents were Joseph Cain and Julia O'Brien. We are trying to find out place of birth of this family in Ireland.

Thanks
Dianna Thomas.

Reggie

Reggie Report 11 Apr 2013 16:39

Irish Civil birth registration info can be found on Ancestry

Catherine

Catherine Report 11 Apr 2013 17:06

I wonder?
Any idea if there were other siblings?

Nom Michael Kane
Sexe Male

Date de naissance 28 Aug 1869
Lieu de naissance Dublin, Dublin, Ireland

Nom du père Joseph Kane
Nom de la mère Julia Brien

Indexing Project (Batch) Nombre C01218-6
Origine du système Ireland-EASy
Numéro de film 101196
ID de référence v 17-2 p 522
...........................................................

Nom Sarah Kane
Sexe Female

Date de naissance 28 Nov 1866
Lieu de naissance 0563,DUBLIN,DUBLIN,IRELAND

Nom du père Joseph Kane
Nom de la mère Julia Bryan

Indexing Project (Batch) Nombre C70131-2
Origine du système Ireland-ODM
Numéro de film 101141

...............................................................

Any idea when Joseph and Julia were born?

Catherine

Catherine Report 11 Apr 2013 17:17

Could this be Stephen?

Ireland, Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911 about Stephen George Keane
Name: Stephen George Keane
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 17 Aug 1879
Birth Place: Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Father's Name: Joseph Keane
Mother's Name: Julia Brien
FHL Film Number: 256034

Alemap

Alemap Report 11 Apr 2013 18:38

Can I suggest you look at irishgenealogy.ie

Possible for parents marriage with grandparents named.
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. LAWRENCE
Marriage of JOSEPHUS KANE of ? KINGSTON and JULIA BRYAN of 1 NEWFOUNDLAND ST on 2 July 1860
:-)

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Apr 2013 20:09

Just looking at the Canadian shipping lists and they were workhouse children.

If they departed from Liverpool would Irish children have been taken across to Liverpool to go on to Canada? I'm curious about this, was wondering if they may have been in a workhouse in Liverpool first?

Are you sure that they were Irish born? There are 4 columns for nationalities across the top of the shipping list - English, Scotch, Irish and Foreigners. All of the children's ages are entered under the column headed English (but that could be laziness on the part of the person filling in the list).

Flip

Flip Report 11 Apr 2013 20:20

MC, the writing also states they departed Kingstown - isn't that a sailing port in Ireland?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Apr 2013 20:28

Flip, looking at the outgoing list it has Cath Cain ticket no 3867 and Stephen Cain ticket no 3866, port of embarkation Liverpool?

EDIT: The only mention I can see of Kingston on the Canadian arrival is where it says they were Catholic children in the care of Mrs Lacy for Kingston - I'd take that to be their destination. That manifest also gives Liverpool as embarkation.

I knew of Queenstown (Cobh) as a port in Cork, didn't know there was a Kingstown in Ireland too.

I was wondering if they'd been in a workhouse in Liverpool on the 1891 which might have shown birthplace ......

Flip

Flip Report 11 Apr 2013 20:33

Yes, I see that, but looking at the Canadian list (arrival 20 Sept- which is rather a quick crossing!!) there is more written on it. Like who was in charge of the Catholic children and who was taking charge of them in Canada. I'm not sure if it says for or from Kingston/Kingstown. Take a look see what you think.

Sorry, should have refreshed first - see you already have that image

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Apr 2013 20:36

Flip - your post crossed with my edit!

I definitely think they were headed to Kingston, wherever that may be.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Apr 2013 20:41

I think this clarifies:
http://jubilation.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/children/lists/lacy.html

Children From The Catholic Children's Protection Society

Extracted from documents found in the National Archives of Canada (NAC). You can obtain a copy of the document from the NAC by quoting the NAC Reference number.

The home was located at 99 Shaw Street, Liverpool, England.

(Note: Many of these children were sent to the House of Providence. However, there were several of the Houses of Providence in different cities and sometimes the city is not noted. Kingston was the main House of Providence used by this organization but they also used the House of Providence in Hamilton and Toronto.)

Mrs Lacy is mentioned on every record

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Apr 2013 20:44

Have found Margaret Lacy b 1851 Ireland as a Superintendent Of Childrens Homes at 99 Shaw Street. Sadly the Cains aren't listed at that time.

Flip

Flip Report 11 Apr 2013 20:56

That's a good find MC, but as you have probably already noticed many of those children listed left for Canada in May 1891 - so I guess the Cain children arrived after that.

I cant find them in 1891 with or without their parents in England though. Maybe they were brought in from Ireland for a short time before the party was organised to ship out.

Wonder if Catherine is onto something with her posts, although I'm not sure where the 17:06 post is from or what it relates to or even the date of the record?

Flip

Flip Report 11 Apr 2013 21:02

Dianna, what documentary evidence do you have to confirm their parents names please? And is there any more info on the parents on that evidence?

Alemap

Alemap Report 11 Apr 2013 21:34

Interesting info on CCPS

Available online.

Golden Bridge: Young Immigrants to Canada, 1833-1939

Dianna

Dianna Report 12 Apr 2013 15:01

Hi Flip.
Thanks for your help regarding Catherine and Stephen. The only document I have available shows that Catherine's marriage certificate show her parents listed as Julia and Joseph Cain. Obviously there could be a mispelling of the surname on the original documents in England.

There was also an uncle Henry Cain, brother to Joseph who emigrated to Canada June 1891.

Definately Mrs Lacey was the caretaker of the children and they were from The Father Nugent Agency.

There is also some reference to House of Providence (Montreal) run by nun's.

Any further help in tracing the family birth place in Ireland would be appreciated.

Thanks to all members who have replied to my request.

Sincerely,
Dianna.

Catherine

Catherine Report 12 Apr 2013 17:19

My 17.06 posting was found on familysearch and relates to the birth of two children born to a Joseph Kane and Julia Brien.

I posted them because the names were very close to those given by Dianna and if they prove to be correct, then it will give at least, a clue as to where the family originated from, which is what Dianna is looking for.

As there is also a birth record for a Stephen Keane, correct date of birth, and parents names seem to fit and the same place of birth as the other two records (Dublin) I thought it worth posting as they could very well be the same family.

The marriage that Pam posted for Joseph Kane and Julia Bryan also shows that Joseph was from ? Kingston, which also seems to fit in with the immigration record so it could very well be the correct family?

Then again not, but worth considering.


Further info on that marriage record found by Pam:-


Husband Wife
Name JOSEPHUS KANE JULIA BRYAN
Address ? KINGSTON 1 NEWFOUNDLAND ST
Occupation N/R N/R
Father JOSEPHI KANE MICHAELIS BRYAN
Mother MARIAE BUTLER CATHARINAE DILLON
Further details in the record
Priest T O'DONNELL VIC
Witness 1 PATRITIO CAVANAGH
Witness 2 MARGARITA ?
About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier Image Filename
N/R N/R 93 DU-RC-MA-104375 st_lawrence_mf_1853-1880_ma_0429


................just in case.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 12 Apr 2013 19:00

May sound odd, but sometimes coming forwards in time helps us work back.

I think this must be the uncle Henry mentioned:

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
Name: Henry Cain
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Date of Arrival: 13 Jun 1891
Vessel: Parisian
Port of Arrival: Quebec and Montreal, Quebec
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England; Londonderry, Ireland
Roll: C-4538

A labourer. No birthplace given but, as with the children, he is ticked in the English column, not the Irish (I think they assumed ifn someone boarded a ship in england that they were English).

Eringobragh1916

Eringobragh1916 Report 12 Apr 2013 23:25

It may be worthwhile having a look if possible to see where the children actually boarded the Parisian as she also embarked passengers in Moville (Co.Donegal) which may be the key...

Mrs Lacey represented Board of Guardians for North Dublin

Liam

Liam Report 12 Apr 2013 23:54

Minutes / Records, of Dublin Board of Guardians, are held at the National archives of Ireland,maybe worth a visit