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Thomas Kelly.b.c1843.,Llangollen.,Denbighshire.,

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 11:32

Dea,all I have is Ellen Jane (she later used Jane Ellen).,dau of Mary Ann Kelly.4,Canal St...single woman...E.J born 18th Jun 1893.,bapt 30th Aug1893.St Catherine.
On the bapt record it states "father rec as John,but crossed out"
Jane Ellen m Charles Edward Anderson in 1915..he was killed in 1916..on cert(which I have copy of) fathers name and occ blank
When she married my grandad Eli Evans in 1917,she was Jane Ellen Anderson,widow. NOW,father is William Griffiths,collier!(have copy of this cert too)
When grandad was alive,he referred to mi grandmas brothers,but can't rem if he named them.

Argyllgran..I will take another look on Lancs OPC,for this marriage,and also see if there were more children(brothers?!)

All the help is much appreciated..I am trying to trace as much as I can for my aunty(Jane Ellen's dau...she is almost 91)
She was v surprised,and shocked(!)when I told her the other day,that she has a half brother,who died age 6mths,and is buried Ince.

Just gone thro my notes again..I have the Killey family(post above),but I have them down as Kelley.
Also,re the Kinery above...in the 1891 census,a Thomas Kelly lived with his family at 21,Victoria St.,Wigan....boarder living there,was John Kinery.50.,b.Co Clare.,with Margaret.5 and Catherine 3,both born Wigan.

Am leaving this now..were going for a birthday lunch for one of our g/daughters...be back later. :-)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 27 Apr 2013 11:51

???

Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
KELLY Thomas Wigan 8c 33

Slightly too late in the year to make him 9 months old on 2 April 1871, but ages on censuses are seldom accurate.
It's the most likely birth listed.

Dea

Dea Report 27 Apr 2013 13:48

Looks like the correct one to me - 9 months old on 2nd April suggests a birth around July so he would have been registered in the September quarter which is the one you have.

This is the detail from Lancs BMD:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1870
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

KELLY Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh KINIRY WIG/94/457

Dea x

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 14:50

Argyllgran...Yes,that is my grandma....She was baptized Ellen Jane,but was always known as Jane Ellen,and Jane Ellen is on both wedding certs.

I found the Jane Kelly(8) in Kirkdale school in 1901...also found Eliza(6).,William(13) and John Henry(11),but,as you say,they might not be related.

Dea....I have no proof,but that was the only child i could find,called Mary Ann,who was born round the right time...just supposition,thats why I wont add her to my family tree,till I'm certain my facts are right! lol

Elaine.x

Dea

Dea Report 27 Apr 2013 14:55

You are just like me Elaine - I had a connection which I 'knew' was correct but couldn't prove it at the time.

I built up a whole tree from it but would not connect it to mine until I had the proof.

I think it took me about 2 years but I got there in the end and I was right !!

At least I know that what I have on my tree is correct which is far more satisfying than just 'sticking hundreds of people on' ;-) :-)

Will have a further look at yours this evening !

Dea Xxx

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 16:40

thankyou Dea..i appreciate that.

i had another thread for this,cos my mum had always said they were welsh evans(methodists,)i was searching in wales!!..for ages!!

now i have found the evans back to 1700s and they never left the area round Bickerstaffe/Ormskirk,etc!!

Now dont know whether to delete the whole other thread,or keep it,but just use this one? If i delete it,i think it would look very disrespectful to people who did an awful lot of "legwork" :-(

Dea

Dea Report 27 Apr 2013 17:05

It is always a shame to delete anythng on here, especially when lots of people have worked so hard on it !!

Perhaps you could just mark it closed as 'found to be unconnected to 'your' family' - that way it will remain there for any future people which it may help ?

Dea Xxx

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 17:14

how do i do that?
Just add a post saying i don't think I am looking in the right place,but thanking all who helped me?

Elaine.xx

Dea

Dea Report 27 Apr 2013 17:17

That sounds about right Elaine......

You could also add a link to this thread to say that this is the right connection you think you have found:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1323898?jump=1323898

Dea Xxx

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 17:20

Lol..not a very good pic,but I'm patting myself on the back for being able to put it up!
Joy Kentish Maid,on here,told me what to do...thnx Joy!

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 27 Apr 2013 18:19

Elaine, who were the witnesses for Jane's first marriage?

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 19:45

hello,Christina...witnessea at first wedding were James Speakman and Lucie Anderson(sister of Charles,i think...he had a sister,Lucy)
Elaine

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Apr 2013 19:47

Dea,I'm sorry,but i haven't a notion how to pass them links on!
Elaine.x

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 28 Apr 2013 12:05

No clues from the witnesses then?

If that is your Jane Ellen at Kirkdale Industrials School, there may be some info held about her admission at the Liverpool Records Office.

Nice pic by the way. :-)

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 28 Apr 2013 12:25

Elaine, I'm just adding this link to your other thread about Jane Ellen for reference.


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1263249

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Apr 2013 16:20

Thnx a million Christina. I've had a comp for about 5yrs now...feeling proud of how much i can do,but learning something new every day!(not learned about links yet tho,lol!)
Even tho I'm now in N.Ireland,I am a Lancashire Lass(Atherton..between Wigan and Bolton)
;-)
Elaine

Elaine

Elaine Report 4 May 2013 00:55

Have contacted loads of other members on here and on Ancestry re Mary Ann Kelly being on their trees.
Got a reply today,from a lady who HAS a Mary Ann Kelly on her tree(i have mine down as 1868,but only worked that out on the understanding that she was the M A Kelly who died in 1897).
She also told me details of the 1891 Census,and I checked.....Thomas Kelly(48)b.Llangollen.,Wales.,his wife,Maria(43)b.Manchester,their 6 children,and a lodger,lived 4,CANAL ST.,WIGAN!!....the same house AND door number as on my grandma,Ellen Janes' baptism!!
AND,one of the children was MARY ANN KELLY,b.c1871
Please,someone tell me I have found the right line now?

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 4 May 2013 14:22

If Mary Ann, with Thomas as father, is your Ellen Jane's mother, then this looks like her marriage, from Lancs OPC...........

Marriage: 1 Aug 1898 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Richard Cooper - (X), 28, Collier, Bachelor, 21 Morris' Row
Mary Ann Kelly - (X), 27, Spinster, 21 Morris' Row
Groom's Father: Andrew Cooper, Collier
Bride's Father: Thomas Kelly, Collier
Witness: James Cooper; Elizabeth Kelly, (X)
Married by Banns by: Herbt. H. Abdy Curate
Register: Marriages 1898 - 1904, Page 18, Entry 36
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives




I don't have a subscription, so can't check full details, but this appears to be the family in 1911, with Ellen Jane listed as Nellie..........

HOUSEHOLD COOPER ALICE F 1902 9 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD COOPER ELIZABETHANN F 1900 11 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD COOPER HENRY M 1906 5 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD COOPER JOHN RICHARD M 1871 40 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD COOPER JOHN WILLIAM M 1904 7 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD COOPER MARY ANN F 1868 43 Wigan Lancashire
>>>>>>>HOUSEHOLD COOPER NELLIE F 1893 18 Wigan Lancashire<<<<<<< Ellen Jane???
HOUSEHOLD COOPER WILLIAM M 1885 26 Wigan Lancashire




Lancashire BMD confirms mother's maiden name as Kelly for Elizabeth Ann, Alice, John William and Henry (James Henry).




Baptism for three of their children from Lancs OPC..........

Baptism: 16 Jul 1901 St Mary, Ince, Lancashire, England
Alice Cooper - [Child] of Richard Cooper & Mary Ann
Born: 9 Jul 1901
Abode: 59 Warrington Rd.
Occupation: Collier
Notes: P.
Baptised by: R. Whitehead
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1902, Page 182, Entry 1452
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Baptism: 24 Jul 1906 St John the Divine, Pemberton, Lancashire, England
James Henry Cooper - [Child] of Richard Cooper & Mary Ann
Abode: Goose Green Pemberton
Occupation: Collier
Notes: P.
Baptised by: W. Walker
Register: Baptisms 1893 - 1909, Page 410, Entry 3280
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Baptism: 14 Jun 1912 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Grace Ann Cooper - [Child] of Richard Cooper & Mary Ann
Born: 5 Jun 1912
Abode: 54 Queen St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: R. Tebbs, Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1885 - 1927, Page 269, Entry 2147
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives


So the family was living at 54 Queen Street in 1912.


Elaine, what was your grandmother's address shown as on her first wedding cert?

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 4 May 2013 15:31

There is a Mary A Cooper b1870 Shropshire living in Lancashire in 1901.

I can't see any other details without a sub.

Will someone please post full census details for her and also for the 1911 census above?

Thank you.

Elaine

Elaine Report 4 May 2013 20:04

Christina....wow that means the Mary Ann who died in 1897 isn't mine! Thats good.Thankyou for all the info...I never even thought of looking for a marriage for Mary Ann...I was sure my grandma was "fostered" cos her mother died when she was a wee girl.
When grandma Evans(Jane Ellen)married for the first time in 1915,she was living 50,QUEEN STREET!!...I have a copy of her wedding cert.

Also,my grandad WAS right when he said mi grandma had brothers!

I have gone through all the censuses from 1841-1911,tracing Mary Anns parents....he put on most of the censuses that he was born Llangollen.,Denbighshire.,Wales....but on 1851 census,Thomas and his sister Catherine are down as birthplace..Stone.,Staffs.
On 1861 census,him and Catherine again down as born Stone.,Staffs,along with 3 more brothers,William,James and Peter.

On 1871 census,Thomas,(b Denbighshire),Maria(b.Manchester)Thomas E(b.Preston)and Mary Ann(b.Whitchurch.,Shrops)are boarders at 1,Hanover St.,Hanley.,Stoke on Trent.,Staffs...Thomas jr was 2 and Mary Ann was 6 mths.

1881 find the family in Broughton Terrace.,Ruabon,Wrexham..this time Maria has birthplace Madely.,Staffs.

1891 and 1901 has Marias birthplace back as Manchester!

So there is a connection with Staffs.

So,I wonder if that was maybe how Richard and Mary Ann could have met?

PS..I'm so glad she wasnt the one who died!

But i do wonder about the Mary Ann who gave birth in the Workhouse,to twins who died at hrs old...was she the same one? Did her father throw her out when she was pregnant? Must try and see neighbours in Canal St,when Jane Ellen was born in 1893....one of the twins was called Thomas(Mary Anns fathers name)wonder if Samuel was the other "grandad"?

Still dont know why no father at 1st marriage,but father William Griffiths at 2nd wedding! lol.....strange!