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Thomas Kelly.b.c1843.,Llangollen.,Denbighshire.,

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Elaine Report 10 May 2013 17:14

mgnv.....have you seen the site Wigan World? Its very interesting.....people recalling their early years,history of the town etc


Elaine Report 11 May 2013 11:36

nave found more births for Richard Cooper and Mary Ann.........MARY ANN COOPER.,b.Mar 1915.,mmn Kelly.

[twins]ANN COOPER and ETHEL COOPER,reg.JulAugSep 1917.,mmn Kelly.

As mgnv found,Richard Cooper died in Jun 1916,so twins must have another father.

A VERY interesting fact I came across was,in 1911 census,above the name Richard,on the same line,was the name John.

I searched everywhere for a John Richard Cooper,with father Andrew and mother Ann,but found zero.
Then tried just the John!..there were 2,but i dont know if first one died and second one called after him(also first Ann had an e..Anne)

Bapt..11th Feb 1867.All Saints.Wigan
John Cooper.,son of Andrew & Anne..abode.,School Lane
b.5th Feb 1867....father>labourer

Bapt.12th Jun 1868.,All Saints.Wigan
John Cooper.,son of Andrew and Ann(this spell of Ann is same as 1901 census and her death in 1912)..abode.,Scholes

Have looked for a burial for the first John,but cant find one.....note on both bapts said this when they christened at bedside in Private?

Now comes the interesting bit.....on my grandma Ellen Jane(Jane Ellen)s bapt..under father,"John" was written and crossed out(it says this on notes)

Could this mean that John,(or John Richard) Cooper,could be my grandmas birth father?

On 1911 census,Mary Ann had given birth to 9 living children...5 were alive(they all lived with Mary Ann & Richard in 1911) and 4 died.
I have a gut feeling the twins b in workhouse,and died within hours,in 1888,were 2 of them(one was Thomas,same name as her father)...can anyone find 2 more births,likely to be born to Mary Ann Kelly,please?
Elaine :-S


mgnv Report 12 May 2013 07:48

Clearing up some outstanding odds & ends

My dad's Auntie Nellie appears on the census as Hellen. I've no doubt Nell and Ellen are the same person, with essentially the same name.

I didn't think that there were 2 Canal Streets in Wigan - well, technically one's in Ince. I assumed the Canal St referred to was the one I knew, near Dougie Bank, abt 1 km W of the workhouse. This seemed to fit, being right next door to Douglas Bank Colliery, where my wife's gran's uncle and cousins worked - one was killed there by a runaway tram.

When I look at the 1891 census for 4 Canal St, the first addy on the page is:
190 Ince G(reen) Lane

1891 England Census Transcription
Ecclesiastical District:CHRISTCHURCH
Parliamentary Borough:INCE
Registration District:WIGAN
Registration Sub-District 4E Hindley
Enumeration District:29
Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:3061 Folio:105 Page:7

THOMAS KELLY 1843 48 Llangollen, Wales HEAD M Coal Miner
MARIA KELLY 1848 43 Manchester WIFE M
THOS EDWARD KELLY 1869 22 Preston, Lancs SON S Coal Miner
MARY ANN KELLY 1871 20 Whitehaven?, Shrops DAUGHTER S Cotton Mill Hand
FRANCES M KELLY 1874 17 Buney?, Wrexham DAUGHTER S Cotton Mill Hand
MARY ELIZTH KELLY 1877 14 Buney?, Wrexham DAUGHTER S
RICHARD KELLY 1879 12 Buney?, Wrexham SON
GRACE KELLY 1885 6 Lower Ince, Lancs DAUGHTER
JAMES BOND 1853 38 Glossop, Derbyshire LODGER M Coal Miner

Go to and search for coords = 359300,404700 and select the 1908 1:2500 map. Canal St is in extreme NE corner, just across canal from Ince Stn. Ince Green Lane runs over the bridge by the station - follow it SW - the road forks at Manley St, both lead to Warrington Rd, Ince (A573) - a difft st from Warrington Rd, Wigan (A49). If I head Sfrom the junction of Warrington Rd, Ince (A573) & Ince Green Ln for 400m, Cemetery Rd is on W side, along with Ince Cemetery. If I take Cemetery Rd W across the railroad tracks, I come to Wigan Cemetery.

Grace Kelly's not too common a name for the 1880s. has only one likely Grace Kelly
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1884
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Grace Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/81/398

Ther's another Johnson in 1881-91
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Rosina Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/92/16
Kelly Rosina 2 yrs Warrington Rd. 05-Jun 1890 dau of Thomas C 376 * Non Con

Incidentally, I am familiar with the site - I imagine you got there thru an earlier post of mine - try Photos of Wigan - Wigan streets.
Kelly Thomas 46 hrs Wigan Union 05-Sep 1888 K 695 * C of E
Kelly Samuel 23 days Wigan Union 05-Sep 1888 K 695 * C of E

The parish entry says they were both born & baptized 1/9/1888. A marginal P would mean a private baptism. I think Sam's age was 23hrs, misentered or mistranscribed as 23d.


mgnv Report 12 May 2013 09:00

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1869
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
COOPER Richard Robert Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/90/481

I think he's your Richard - a look up on Lancs BMD gets:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
COOPER Andrew FISHER Elizabeth All Saints, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C33/11/216

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1866
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
COOPER Andrew ROBINSON Ann St. George, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C30/2/470

Then a look up on Lan OPC gets:
Marriage: 7 Jun 1852 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Andrew Cooper - (X), 22 Collier Bachelor of Horse & Jockey Yard Scholes
Elizabeth Fisher - (X), 26 Spinster of Horse & Jockey Yard Scholes
Groom's Father: Thomas Cooper, Labourer
Bride's Father: Peter Fisher, Deceased
Witness: Thomas Cooper, (X); Margaret Dawber, (X)
Married by Banns by: Howard St.George Curate
Register: Marriages 1851 - 1853, Page 108, Entry 216
Source: LDS Film 1885696

Marriage: 17 Nov 1866 St George, Wigan, Lancs.
Andrew Cooper - (X), full Collier Widower of Scholes
Ann Robinson - (X), Full Spinster of Scholes
Groom's Father: Thomas Cooper, Weaver
Bride's Father: Henry Robinson, Stone Mason
Witness: Thomas Hunter, (X); Mary Jolley, (X)
Married by Banns by: Philip Hains
Register: Marriages 1861 - 1867, Page 235, Entry 470
Source: LDS Film 1885726

Making this likely:
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1866
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
COOPER Elizabeth 37 Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/61/29

[I'd expected an earlier death - I could have found this one on FreeBMD, but I'ld still need to check there was no earlier competitor, and pre-1866, the GRO index didn't list age]

1881 Wales Census
Civil parish: Broughton
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Broughton Terrace
Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 5516 Folio: 18 Page Number: 29-30

Thomas Kelly 36 Llangollen, Denbighshire, Wales Head M Coal Miner
Maria Kelly 31 Madeley, Staffordshire, England Wife M
Thomas Ed. Kelly 12 Preston, Lancashire, England Son Coal Miner
Mary Ann Kelly 10 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England Daughter
Jno. Wm. Kelly 8 Llangollen, Denbighshire, Wales Son
Frances Maria Kelly 6 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Daughter
Richard Kelly 1 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Son
Thomas Jones 35 Holywell, Flintshire, Wales Boarder Coal Miner
Ezra Anderson 27 Ruthin, Denbighshire, Wales Boarder Blacksmith
Mary Eliz. Kelly 4 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Daughter

[Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:2855 Folio:12 Page:17]

[Whitchurch was an original 1837 RD, but was abolished after 6m, and incorporated into Wem RD.
A new Whitchurch RD was created in 1853, and got Whitchurch from Wem, as well as bits of Ellesmere, Gt Broughton, Nantwich and Wrexham RDs.
Whitchurch is abt 25km ESE of Wrexham. Madeley is in Newcastle under Lyme RD, I think in Audley subdistrict.]

Boarder Thomas Kelly M 24 Denbighshire
Wife Maria Kelly F 21 Manchester, Lancashire
Son Thomas E Kelly M 2 Preston, Lancashire
Daughter Mary Ann Kelly F 0 Whitechurch, Staffordshire
[addy= 3 Hanover St, Hanley; Thos is a Collier; Mary Ann a=6m]
[Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:2855 Folio:12 Page:17]

A llok up for Kelly-Johnson marrs gets just one likely hit:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
Kelly Thomas Wrexham 11b 544

Clicking on the page # (and reordering) gets:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
WILLIAMS William Wrexham 11b 544
EDWARDS Ann Wrexham 11b 544
Kelly Thomas Wrexham 11b 544
Johnson Maria Wrexham 11b 544

and the next page reorded is:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
Reynolds William Wrexham 11b 545
HOWARD Mary Ellen Wrexham 11b 545
Rogers Price Wrexham 11b 545
Reynolds Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 545

Now a look up at gets:
North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1868
Surname Forename Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Thomas Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/013/15
HOWARD Mary Ellen WM/013/15
JOHNSON Maria WM/013/15
REYNOLDS William WM/013/15

Unlike most local marr indexes, Wrexham indexes their page #, not the entry #. However, abt 50% of time, the local and GRO pages are misaligned (as here) so the 2 indexes combined yield who wed whom.

There's links to all the online local indexes at:
There's a seperate Wrexham site:
but this gives exactly the same result (but does include cemetery records).

To go back with more surety, I would need the m.cert, but my guess for Maria would be:
A possible:
1861 England Census Transcription
Ecclesiastical District:ST JOHNS
Parliamentary Borough:MANCHESTER
Registration District:MANCHESTER
Registration Sub-District 2 Deansgate
Enumeration District:20
Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2941 Folio:78 Page:34

JANE JOHNSON 1808 53 Warrington, Lancs HEAD W Music Seller
ELIZA ANN JOHNSON 1840 21 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER U Professor of music
JANE JOHNSON 1845 16 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER Scholar
MARIA JOHNSON 1851 10 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER Scholar
HELENA KUNLINSON 1841 20 France VISITOR Gentlewoman

1851 England Census Transcription
Street:25 GRANBY ROW
Division Of County:
Ecclesiastical District:
Enumeration District:
House Name:
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:MANCHESTER
Page: 14
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2228

WILLIAM JOHNSON 1808 43 Manchester, Lancs Head M Musician
JANE JOHNSON 1807 44 Lancs Wife M
FANNY (MARY) JOHNSON 1780 71 Lancs Mother W
SARAH (LOUISA) JOHNSON 1838 13 Lancs Dau Scholar
ELIZA ANN JOHNSON 1840 11 Lancs Dau
WILLIAM JOHNSON 1842 9 Lancs Son
JANE JOHNSON 1844 7 Lancs Dau
MARIA JOHNSON 1850 1 Lancs Dau
[One of the water-damaged sheets]


Elaine Report 12 May 2013 10:57

That's wot I got! (except I haven't looked at Maria Johnsons background yet )
I only found the Horse & Jockey link last night!
Andrew was pretty quick,marrying again,so soon after Elizabeth's death...but on my dads side,my gt gt grandad,Denis Mahon,lost his first wife,Catherine Rice,in Mar 1868,a few days after she gave birth to their 4th child....he married Bridget Farrell in Jul the same year(think it was prob to help look after 3 small kiddies and a tiny baby...but they went on to have a further 6 children!)

I thought maybe this was the case with Andrew Cooper,but I could only find 2 births for Andrew and Elizabeth....26th Jun 1859--St.George.,Wigan>Henry Cooper,son of Andrew Cooper & Elizabeth.(Down Gates.,Scholes)
9th Jun 1862--All Saints.,Wigan>Ann Cooper,dau of Andrew Cooper & Elizabeth(Scholes)
Couldn't see any more.

What do you think of my gut feeling,that Richard Cooper who m Mary Ann,is the same John Richard on 1911census,is the same John Cooper b to Andrew & Ann?

And do you think the most likely John,is the one bapt 1868? Elizabeth Cooper was only buried Sept 1866.....and I know the morals back then could be pretty loose(!),but surely he wouldn't have had a baby with someone else 5mths later?

I also found a few more burials around that time,don't know if they're relevant to me or not.......Burial.,23rd Apr.1865.,All Saints.,John Cooper,age 1(Ince)
Burial.,6th Jan.1867.,All Saints.,Thomas Cooper,age 1 1/2 yrs(180,Scholes St)
Burial.,9th Jul.1871.,All Saints.,Elizabeth Cooper,age 9wks(School St)...School Lane was the abode at the baptism of the first John Cooper,in 1867.

I didn't see you on Wigan World,I don't look at the photos....with me being from Atherton,I am unfamiliar with views round Wigan.
Think I got on WW accidentally..was messing around putting in Jane Ellen,Wigan,and that was a link to WW...I was nosy and took a look!
Will look for your pics..are you under mgnv on there too?


Elaine Report 12 May 2013 11:25

mgnv....had to laugh when I saw Grace Kelly and James Bond in the same house!

Re the 1911 census,we're it says Mary Ann had 9 children born alive....5 living(with her and Richard in 1911 census)and 4 dead...
I found bapt ,all at All Saints,for children b to William Griffith and Mary Ann:-
William bapt 6thJun 1887(lower Ince)
Joseph bapt 23rd Sep 1889(Warrington Rd.,Ince!)
Sarah bapt 6thJun1892(Brittania Bridge,Ince)
Edward bapt22nd Oct 1893(Ince)

Did find bapt for Jane bapt 3rdSep 1880,but discounted this as Mary Ann would only have been about 12! This was also William GriffithS......and my 90 yr old aunt is adamant the name was Griffith,without the S ,even tho GriffithS is on their birth Certs and Jane Ellen's marriage cert!

Interesting to see Warrington rd,which has cropped up a couple of times.
Could this be the elusive William Griffith?

Edit the above...have found a marriage for William Griffiths,Chapel Lane TO Mary Ann Davies.,Chapel Lane.....25th Jan 1875.,St George.,Wigan


Elaine Report 16 May 2013 03:04

I am still looking for Mary Ann Kelly in 1901 census(think she married Richard(John)Cooper c 1898,so would prob be Mary Ann Cooper.)
She had a dau Ellen Jane(Nellie)b 1893 and a dau Elizabeth Ann,b 1900...these children weren't living with father,so ,technically,should have been with mother.

Joining Mary Ann on my list of missing Kelly's,on 1901 census,is John William Kelly,her brother!
He went on to marry Emma Jane Neary in c1903,and they lived Ammanford.,Carmarthenshire in 1911 census.

Was there an epidemic or anything going round at that time? Could Mary Ann and John William and the two children have been in hospital? Is there any way of finding out?

I am clutching at straws now......fed up of banging against this brick wall!


Elaine Report 16 May 2013 20:33

found Thomas and Maria in 1901..they were living 53,Broom St.,Ince in Makerfield.,Wigan,

head, Thomas Kelly(56)Coal Hewer.,b Llangollen
wife,Maria Kelly(51).,b Manchester
dau,Elizabeth(24),Pit Bank Woman.,b Wrexham.......on 1881 census she down as Mary Elizabeth.,b Broughton., this a district of Wrexham?
son,Richard(21)Coal Labourer Below Ground.,b Wrexham
dau,Rosina(8) b Wigan......this makes her b c1893,so it must be the second dau they called Rosina......the first one was b 1887(KELLY Rosina, Hindley,Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/92/16............then,on Wigan World.,Ince Cemetery,KELLY,Rosina 2yrs.,Warrington Rd.,5th June.1890.,dau of Thomas.,C376* NonCon
Incidentally,Warrington Rd is place of abode on Mary Ann and Richard(John)Coopers dau Alices baptism.

so,Mary Ann or John William werent visiting their parents on night of census,so where were they?!


Elaine Report 19 May 2013 19:45

Is it possible for people to be left off the census,somehow?

cos i have 2 people who dont seem to appear in any way,shape or form!


Elaine Report 20 May 2013 23:48

please would someone find me Mary Ann Cooper(nee Kelly) and her brother John William Kelly in 1901,cos i've put in every combination of names i can think of....i've used just surnames..,used first and middle names..,used just first names..,used just middle names..,looked in england..,looked in wales.....i don't know WHERE else to look(and Mary Ann had had a baby in 1900(Elizabeth Ann) and another baby was born July 1901(Alice) how can i NOT find them?


Elaine Report 21 May 2013 00:10

mcnv..just looked thro your post on 12th May...I dont think that family of Johnsons,are the ones with dau Maria,who married Thomas Kelly.
I will ask the lady sharing the same family,for the info on the marriage cert..she has a copy.
She did tell me that Thomas had Wrexham as pob,and both grooms and brides fathers were called John...not William the musician,John Kelly is down as a shoemaker


Elaine Report 23 May 2013 01:50

Nudge up please!xxx


Elaine Report 30 May 2013 23:57

please find these people in 1901 census...Mary Ann Cooper(nee Kelly)b.c1871...,Ellen Jane Kelly(or Cooper).,b.c1893....,ElizabethAnn Cooper ,b.c1900.,..and John William Kelly,b.c1873)
Bought another 200 credits,but used them all,and still no closer to finding them!
Will have to wait awhile now,to get more credits..



MarieCeleste Report 1 Jun 2013 12:46

Nudging this up for Elaine.


MarieCeleste Report 1 Jun 2013 12:51

Elaine, where were Elizabeth Ann and Ellen Jane born?


Elaine Report 1 Jun 2013 14:23

MC..up to now I have...
Ellen Jane Kelly,b 1893.,Wigan.Lancs...mother>Mary Ann Kelly.,single woman

1898,Mary Ann Kelly marries Richard Cooper.(in Wigan.Lanc)

their children:-
Elizabethann Cooper b 1900(b Wigan)
Alice Cooper b 1901(b Wigan0
John William Cooper b 1904(b Wigan)
James Henry Cooper b 1906(b Wigan)
Grace Ann Cooper b 1912(b Wigan)

In 1911 Census,Mary Ann Cooper was living 1,Fairhurst Yard.,Wigan
Head is now down as JOHN Richard Cooper!
(had looked for a bapt for Richard Cooper,parents Andrew & Ann....none.,so now looked for a John Cooper,found one bapt 1868 .Wigan)

Also living with them in 1911,was Nellie,b1893(I think this is likely my gran,Ellen Jane Kelly....her eldest dau,my aunt,said her mother was "fostered"out...wonder if that was being a stepchild instead?She has the Cooper surname here,and down as dau)

On the night of the 1901 Census,Richard is with his parents,at 59,Warrington Rd.Wigan(this is also the address at the baptism of his & Mary Anns' child,Elizabethann)

Richards' mother,Ann,was buried in Wigan in 1912......Richard was buried Wigan in 1916.....both had address down as 50,Queen St.Wigan(this is also the addres on marriage cert,for my gran,now down as Jane Ellen Kelly,when she married Charles Edward Anderson,in 1915)

Re Mary Ann Cooper(nee Kelly)'s earlier life...she was b Shropshire,c 1871..father Thomas Kelly .,mother Maria Johnson(wife)
In 1891 Census,the family lived 4,Canal St.,Wigan(this is also address on bapt of Ellen Jane Kelly in 1893)

That,basically,is as far as I have got!

Why is Mary Ann.,Ellen Jane and Elizabeth Ann,not with Richard in 1901 Census? Elizabeth Ann is only a year old,and Alice was born Jul 1901.

Was trying to see were they in a hospital or something,but no luck.

Thankyou for taking a look,MarieCeleste....I really do appreciate it.


mgnv Report 1 Jun 2013 20:02

Richard - sibs and nephews, etc:
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1853q2 COOPER Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/37/440
1855q4 COOPER Ellen Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/45/99
1859q2 COOPER Henry Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/56/287
1862q2 COOPER Ann Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/66/429 [GRO p=55]
1867 COOPER John Wigan [unregistered]
1868q2 COOPER John Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/86/376
1869q2 COOPER Richard Robert Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/90/481
1871q2 COOPER Elizabeth Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/97/288
1873q4 COOPER James Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/107/47
1876q1 COOPER Elizabeth Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/115/369
1877q4 COOPER John Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/123/180
1879q3 COOPER William Hindley Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON HNDL/66/288 [GRO p=80]
1882q1 COOPER Margaret Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/140/310
1884q4 COOPER Mary Ellen Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/152/335
1888q3 KELLY Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/168/171
1888q3 KELLY Samuel Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/168/172
1893q3 KELLY Ellen Jane Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/113/274
1899q2 COOPER Elizabeth Ann Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/214/440
1901q3 COOPER Alice Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/144/91
1903q2 COOPER John William Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/151/474
1906q1 COOPER James Henry Pemberton Wigan & Leigh KELLY PEM/93/381
1912q2 COOPER Grace Ann Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/270/341
1914q+ COOPER Mary Ann Atherton Wigan & Leigh KELLY ATH/114/299
1917q3 COOPER Ann Atherton Wigan & Leigh KELLY ATH/118/482
1917q3 COOPER Ethel Atherton Wigan & Leigh KELLY ATH/118/483
[q+ is q1 of following year]
1878 COOPER John Andrew Hindley Wigan & Leigh DARBYSHIRE HNDL/63/146
1896q2 COOPER Margaret Ellen Wigan Wigan & Leigh PEARSON WIG/201/481
1897q1 COOPER Mary Alice Wigan Wigan & Leigh PEARSON WIG/205/468
1901q1 COOPER Margaret Ann Hindley Wigan & Leigh PEARSON HNDL/143/25
1883 COOPER Emmanuel Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/147/247
1885 COOPER James Hindley Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON HNDL/85/254
1888 COOPER John Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh HANSON WIG/166/304
1890 COOPER Walter Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMSON WIG/176/318
1893 COOPER Lily Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/188/130
1895 COOPER Florrie Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/199/74
1897 COOPER Betsy Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/207/384
1900 COOPER Annie Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/220/25
1904 COOPER James Wigan Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON WIG/236/473
1902 COOPER John Willie Hindley Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON HNDL/146/364
1903 COOPER Henry Hindley Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON HNDL/151/249
1904 COOPER Harold Hindley Wigan & Leigh HAMPSON HNDL/156/287
1909 COOPER Walter Hindley Wigan & Leigh ORMSBY HNDL/174/309
1911 COOPER Florence Elizabeth Hindley Wigan & Leigh ORMSBY HNDL/179/418

Mary Ann - sibs, etc:
Deaths Jun 1909 (>99%)
KELLY Maria 60 Pontypridd 11a 264

North Wales Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1847q4 KELLY Thomas Wrexham Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/008/28
1868ish KELLY Thomas Edward supposedly Preston [unregistered]
1870q4 KELLY Mary Ann Whitchurch, S. 6a 711
1872q2 KELLY John William Corwen Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) CRWN/18/82
1874q3 KELLY Fanny Maria Wrexham Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/044/51
1876q3 KELLY Mary E Wrexham Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/049/75 [Mary Elizabeth]
1879q3 KELLY Richard Wrexham Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/056/91

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1884q3 KELLY Grace Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/81/398
1887q3 KELLY Rosina Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/92/16
[FreeBMD 1887 transcription says Robina, but image says Rosina - correct'n subm'd.]
1892q4 KELLY Rosina Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/110/222

I don't know whose kids these are - certainly not Maria's
1896q4 KELLY Samuel Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/203/400
1899q3 KELLY John William Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/137/17
Kelly Rosina 2 yrs Warrington Rd. 05-Jun 1890 dau of Thomas C 376 * Non Con
Kelly Samuel 2 yrs 53 Broom St. 26-Dec 1898 son of Maria C 732 * C of E
Kelly John William 6 mo 53 Broom St. 24-Feb 1900 son of Maria C 811 * C of E

Broom St used to back onto Morris Row, the latter now renamed as Forge St - see Richard's m.cert.

Sam could well be Mary Ann's.
Cooper John 12 Mths 1 Barlows Yd. Lime St. 1-Dec 1867 L 6 C of E
Cooper John 2 Mths 1 Barlows Yd. Lime St. 21-Jun 1868 L 36 C of E
[although unstarred, both look like common graves]

Some of the above seem to be missing from various censuses.
I can't find:
mother Ann Cooper 1911, Thos C 1901/11, Henry C 1881, James/Esther C 1911, Eliz C 1901/11, William C 1901, Margt C 1911, Mary Ellen C 1891/1911.
Nor can I find:
Thos Ed Kelly 1901/11, John W K 1891/1901, Mary Eliz K 1911, Rosina K 1911.
Of course, we're mostly concerned with Mary Ann Cooper and her kds, Jane Ellen Cooper and Elizabeth Ann Cooper, in 1901.


Elaine Report 1 Jun 2013 22:00

wow , did so well...thankyou.
re burials of Samuel in 1898 and John William in 1900.....wonder why the address for both is 53 Broom St?
In 1901 Census,53,Broom St was the home of Thomas Kelly(56).,Maria,(51).,Elizabeth(24).,Richard(21) and Rosina(8)

Samuel could be Marias' son,butJohn William CANT because he married Emma Jane Neary in 1903,and they lived(together with JWs father,Thomas)in Ammanford.,Carmarthenshire.,Wales,in the 1911 census.
He died,aged 75 in Llanelli,Carmarthenshire in 1948.

Wonder if BOTH boys could be the sons of Elizabeth? Ages would fit..Also,Thomas called HIS son,John William., Mary Ann called HER son John William,and John William called HIS son,John William! .(1873 John Williams' gt g/dau gave me info off Thomas' marriage cert,which said Thomas' father was John Kelly.,shoemaker........the "John" in John William,perhaps?

just a of the witneses at Andrew Coopers first marriage,to Elizabeth Fisher,was Thomas Cooper.....I have Andrews' parents down as Thomas and Ellen.....could his father have been a witness?

I will go back AGAIN (!!) and look in Censuses.....people CANT just disappear!!!

heartfelt thanks,once again.



mgnv Report 2 Jun 2013 01:37

Not dad - witness would be brother Thomas Edward Kelly.
Sam can't be Maria's son - wrong maiden surname. Maria's just claiming them to avoid stigma of illegitimacy in family. It's an odd thing, seeing such misstatements - the illeg rate in Lancs was 4.1% in 1881 - the England & Wales rate was < 5%.
The other half of my family was from Aberdeenshire/Banffshire where there was a lot less stigma with its 13.2/16.0% rates That means if I start my family tree at my dad, then by the time I get back to his grandparents, I should expect to have an illegitimate person in the tree. In Lancs, I need to go back an extra two generations to get an average of 1 or more persons in the tree.


Elaine Report 2 Jun 2013 04:17

Thought Sam might have belonged to Daniel & Maria Kelly,with mother down as Maria,but even tho he was b 1896,the address was 139,Main St.,Billinge.
So it does look like John William belongs to Elizabeth,and she has chosen the same names as the other three! Lol
But how come Sams address is 53 ,Broom St? Does he belong to some other of Thomas & Maria's children?
Did find another burial,Ince Cemetery...John Cooper,son of James Cooper,Broom St...but he was buried 22nd Jul 1870.
What was the mmn for Sam,I couldn't even find a bapt with right dates?
Not tired,so I've been going thro censuses all night!