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Matching the Bride and Groom

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date
Marked As Answer Marked as Answered

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 09:14

Is there a way of determining which bride married which groom?

My grand uncle was William Thomas Llewellyn

This is his marriage:

Marriages Jun 1886 (>99%)
BRYAN Rosina Newport M 11a 254
COLLINS Albert Newport M 11a 254
Hale Rosina Newport, M. 11a 254
LLEWELLYN William Newport M. 11a 254

I THINK he married Rosina Bryan. Rosina Bryan/Brian was born Q1 1868 and Rosina Hale was born Q2 1868 (I think)

Is there a tool that would determine this without buying the certificate?

Jude

Andrew

Andrew Report 5 May 2013 09:22

What are the chances of having two Rosinas on the same record? Normally you could look on the following census, but in this case you probably need the cert, especially as the brides were born so close together.

Andy

Flip

Flip Report 5 May 2013 09:23

Hi Jude,

Only hope is one of the "in-laws" turns up on a census with them - and lets hope you don't need the will :-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 09:26

Yeah Andy/Flip....tried the in-law angle to no avail.

And of course the censuses don't throw any light on anything!

I sent for two more will last week Flip :-)

Jude

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 09:41

There is a possible Collins/Hale birth for this couple in 1913.........

Household transcription
1911 census

Person: COLLINS, Rosina
Address: 17 Ebenezer Terrace Newport

COLLINS, Albert Head Married M 45 1866 Dock Labourer Newport Mon VIEW
COLLINS, Rosina Wife Married24 years F 42 1869 Newport Mon VIEW
COLLINS, Albert Charles Son Single M 22 1889 Wagon Repairer Newport Mon VIEW
COLLINS, Arthur Son Single M 11 1900 School Newport Mon VIEW
COLLINS, James Edwin Son Single M 7 1904 Newport Mon VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 31979
Reference: RG14PN31979 RG78PN1840 RD587 SD2 ED20 SN105
Registration District: Newport
Sub District: Newport
Enumeration District: 20
Parish: Newport
Address: 17 Ebenezer Terrace Newport
County: Monmouthshire


??

Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Collins Elsie M Hale Newport M 11a 554

Flip

Flip Report 5 May 2013 09:45

Much as I hate to post this, and you may already have it:

William Llewellyn
Probate Date: 31 May 1919
Death Date: 18 Mar 1919
Death Place: Monmouthshire, Wales
Registry: London, England

Of the Royal Oak - probate to widow Rosina £1801 9s 4d

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 10:00

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
about Rosina Llewellyn
Name: Rosina Llewellyn
Birth Date: abt 1868
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1959
Age at Death: 91
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 8c
Page: 216






England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
about Rosina Llewellyn
Name: Rosina Llewellyn
Probate Date: 12 Oct 1959
Death Date: 12 Sep 1959
Death Place: Monmouthshire, Wales
Registry: Oxfordshire, England

Of 52 Brywern Pontypool........to Louis Lllewellyn (Lewis on the 1911 census?) retired plumber and Florence Helena Eliza Llewellyn widow.

Effects: £2704 10s 6d



PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 10:03

Lewis/Louis's occupation on the 1911 census is a Plumber..........

Household transcription
1911 census

Person: LLEWELLYN, Lewis
Address: Royal Oak Hotel Christchurch Mon

LLEWELLYN, William Head Married M 44 1867 Licensed Victualler Glamorgan Cardiff VIEW
LLEWELLYN, Rosina Wife Married F 43 1868 Newport Mon VIEW
LLEWELLYN, Lewis Son Single M 21 1890 Plumber Newport Mon VIEW
PEARCE, Polly Servant Single F 20 1891 Domestic Servant Newport Mon VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 31957
Reference: RG14PN31957 RG78PN1839 RD587 SD1 ED12 SN256
Registration District: Newport
Sub District: Caerleon
Enumeration District: 12
Parish: Christchurch
Address: Royal Oak Hotel Christchurch Mon
County: Monmouthshire



England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Louis Llewellyn
Name: Louis Llewellyn
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1889
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 195



England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
about Louis Llewellyn
Name: Louis Llewellyn
Birth Date: 9 Mar 1889
Date of Registration: Jan 1987
Age at Death: 97
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 28
Page: 1293

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 10:09

It seems Florence was the wife of son William..........


Household transcription
1911 census

Person: LLEWELLYN, Florence Helena
Address: Croes Wen Penhow Newport

LLEWELLYN, William Head Married M 25 1886 Licensed Victualler Newport Mon VIEW
LLEWELLYN, Florence Helena Wife Married2 years F 31 1880 Pontypool Mon VIEW
LLEWELLYN, William Thomas Robert Son M 1 1910 Christchurch Mon VIEW
SAWTELL, Lilian Kathleen Servant Single F 16 1895 Barmaid Usk Mon VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 31955
Reference: RG14PN31955 RG78PN1839 RD587 SD1 ED10 SN46
Registration District: Newport
Sub District: Caerleon
Enumeration District: 10
Parish: Penhow
Address: Croes Wen Penhow Newport
County: Monmouthshire

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 10:16

Hmmmm....

England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005
about Florence H E Povall
Name: Florence H E Povall
Spouse Name: Louis Llewellyn
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1916
Registration district: Newport Market
Inferred County: Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 299

Flip

Flip Report 5 May 2013 10:24

A tree on Ancestry has Rosina Hale, got married at Holy Trinity, Newport on 27/6/1887? to Albert Collins. There is no document attached for any proof though.
It also has her christening 15/7/1868 at St Paul's, and her death in 1924 but I'm not sure of that death as that Rosina has a middle initial.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 11:48

Sorry been out shopping!

Prickles - I like that Collins Hale birth!

I am fairly sure (through "connections") that Rosina Bryan is the correct Rosina. Yes I have all the probates etc....it was a complicated family....

William and Rosina had two sons - William and Louis. William (known as fat Willy) had a dance band called Billy Llewellyn's Dance Band and married Florence Helena Mitchell.

Florence's sister Clara married Thomas Povall and their daughter Florence Helena Eliza Povall married Louis, William's brother!

William took over the Royal Oak on Chepstow Road Newport from his father. It's now a Toby Carvery!

Jude

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 5 May 2013 11:53

Someone asked what the chances of 2 Rosina's were.

Well in Wales at this time this name seems to have been extremely popular.

I have at least 2 of similar ages in my family.

I also have 2 Florence Fowlers (of four in my tree!) born one year apart (same area as well) and the younger is the aunt of the older one. Very confusing. :-D :-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 11:57

Yes PP...Rosina is a very popular name in Wales it seems...I had never heard of it until I started this lark and I have six in my tree! :-)

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 5 May 2013 12:00

I love Fat Willy!!

:-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 12:09

That's what my dad used to call him (he died when my dad was four). I have a cutting from the South Wales Argus in 1996....the caption says "as the frontman, Billy Llewellyn, seen here on the right.......well the guy on the right as you look at the photo is stick thin. The guy on the right as they sat is fat (and he looks a bit Llewellynish)..

:-)

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 5 May 2013 14:55

I've found the image for both marriages on FMP, though both have been mistranscribed as 1887.

Will pm you the actual image;

Grooms Last Name: Llewellyn
Grooms First Name: William
Grooms Fathers First Name: Lewis
Grooms Fathers Last Name: Llewellyn
Grooms Parish:
Grooms Age: 20
Brides Last Name: Bryan
Brides First Name: Rosina
Brides Fathers First Name: Bobert
Brides Fathers Last Name: Bryan
Brides Parish:
Brides Age: 19
County: Monmouthshire
Place / Parish: Newport, Holy Trinity
Marriage Year: 1887
Marriage Month: Jun
Marriage Day: 22
Page: 146
Record source: Monmouthshire Marriages - Transcripts
Data provider: Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

Grooms Last Name: Collins
Grooms First Name: Albert
Grooms Fathers First Name: George
Grooms Fathers Last Name: Collins
Grooms Parish:
Grooms Age: 20
Brides Last Name: Hale
Brides First Name: Rosina
Brides Fathers First Name: William
Brides Fathers Last Name: Hale
Brides Parish:
Brides Age: 19
County: Monmouthshire
Place / Parish: Newport, Holy Trinity
Marriage Year: 1887
Marriage Month: Jun
Marriage Day: 27
Page: 146
Record source: Monmouthshire Marriages - Transcripts
Data provider: Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

EDIT: It's definitely 1886 on the image itself, which I've sent you by pm. Both couples give their address as Jedds St.

William Llewellin (sic) on register, but signs as Llewellyn, was a 20 yr old grocer, and his father Lewis Llewellyn is described as a blacksmith.

Flip

Flip Report 5 May 2013 15:16

Nice one Kucinta, so I guess that's where the ancestry tree got the marriage date of 1887 for the other couple!

At least we don't have to got through the trauma of Jude getting more wills - which took months once before. Sorry Jude, I still think of that saga and dread posting probate records for you. ;-)

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 5 May 2013 15:25

Thanks, Flip.

As you say, the mistranscription would account for the ancestry tree wrong marriage date.

TBH I think you'd all got to the right conclusion without me .

Just happy to be able to confirm it :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 May 2013 15:41

Many thanks! Got it. Lewis the blacksmith was my great grandfather. The witnesses thomas marchant llewellyn (another grand uncle) and sarah ann (his wife). And all four from jeddo street! Designed to confuse!